Dealing with Limpers

I was wondering how people deal with Limpers pre-flop.

Basic strategy talks about raising pre-flop with XX hand in Y position if you are first to open the pot. (of course flexiblity and randomness of your play comes into the mix here to prevent predictability)

The Gap Concept then defines proper strategy with what to do with a raiser in front of you.

But I have a hell of a time wrapping my head around a sound general theory concerning limpers. I take into account the persons play style and my read on them and try to figure if they are Loose and just getting in to see what happens, if they are generally tight they might be slow playing AA, KK, or maybe they are looking to see a flop cheaply with a moderate hand (AT, Suited Connectors, Low Pair, KJ, etc....), or are they could be just bad players who don't realize that limping in with a good but not made hand is asking for trouble as too many callers usually spells doom after the flop....

In general, if I have the killer hands, AA, KK, AK, even QQ its pretty easy for me to go for a normal raise after a limper and the hell with them..., its when I see the moderate hands that should see a raise in Middle & Late position that I start to question what I should do....go for the raise anyway as if the Limpers weren't there, or just Limp with them and play after the flop.

I hate the idea of just calling, as it yields no information on my opponents hand. For instance it would be much cheaper to Raise a couple of limpers pre-flop from middle or late position with AJ, 99, 88 etc...and see who comes back at me (uh oh....possible AA KK AK alert) and who just goes away with a junk hand trying to see the flop, than to wait till post-flop.

Especially if I have AT and flop comes AT3 (I would most likely call any bet with that, or make my own bet if everyone checked and I'd be in a heap of touble to someone slow playing AA), where as a player who calls a pre-flop raise and then comes out betting/raising on the flop would be easier to get away from.

I raise limpers like it's my job. When a tight player limps I'll raise from the BTN with any 2 because his range is almost always exclusively pocket pairs that he'll call with and then fold when he misses his set. When a loose "just want to see a flop" player limps I'll reaise with any 2 if they limp/fold. If the loose player limp/calls I'll fold weaker hands and raise anything that figures to be ahead of his range.

Only when there are multiple limpers who are unlikely to fold to a raise will I limp behind with small pairs / suited connectors. So basic strategy is to raise, raise, raise, and punish the limpers.

WVHillbilly said:

I raise limpers like it's my job. When a tight player limps I'll raise from the BTN with any 2 because his range is almost always exclusively pocket pairs that he'll call with and then fold when he misses his set. When a loose "just want to see a flop" player limps I'll reaise with any 2 if they limp/fold. If the loose player limp/calls I'll fold weaker hands and raise anything that figures to be ahead of his range.

Only when there are multiple limpers who are unlikely to fold to a raise will I limp behind with small pairs / suited connectors. So basic strategy is to raise, raise, raise, and punish the limpers.

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Excellent tournament strategy. I will add to the arsenal. The truth it demands studying of contenders that excludes game behind several tables and in general the Internet of game with a considerable quantity of participants as them often replace also an exact trustworthy information in the necessary quantity will not type.

BKonnak said:

Excellent tournament strategy. I will add to the arsenal. The truth it demands studying of contenders that excludes game behind several tables and in general the Internet of game with a considerable quantity of participants as them often replace also an exact trustworthy information in the necessary quantity will not type.

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Huh?

Snowmobiler said:

Huh?

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+1

BKonnak said:

Excellent tournament strategy. I will add to the arsenal. The truth it demands studying of contenders that excludes game behind several tables and in general the Internet of game with a considerable quantity of participants as them often replace also an exact trustworthy information in the necessary quantity will not type.

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I'll respond to the part I understand: I don't play tournaments.

yup, you got to punish the limpers,

like a great player says "if its good enough to call its good enough to raise"

raise, raise, raise.....

WVHillbilly said:

I'll respond to the part I understand: I don't play tournaments.

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Well. Your business.

AnthonyENG said:

yup, you got to punish the limpers,

like a great player says "if its good enough to call its good enough to raise"

raise, raise, raise.....

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I prefer to lift on a card or from a late position.

sguy6 said:

just play your own game, as long as it works it doesn't matter if they are limping in or raising. if you have good cards than you make the better play.

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I agree, and if you have good cards then you can usually eliminate the limpers looking to get a peak at the flop by making a sizable raise pre-flop. Most won't waste alot of chips on crap cards just to get a peak and hope to get lucky, and you'll typically be left with only people with quality starting hands.

BobTheBiller said:

I agree, and if you have good cards then you can usually eliminate the limpers looking to get a peak at the flop by making a sizable raise pre-flop. Most won't waste alot of chips on crap cards just to get a peak and hope to get lucky, and you'll typically be left with only people with quality starting hands.

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Correctly. I too raise with good hands. What for to me are necessary limps with dust which can to get successfully in flop.

BKonnak, where are you from? Are you typing responses into some sort of translation software and posting the resulting text because honestly your posts read like jibberish?

WVHillbilly said:

BKonnak, where are you from? Are you typing responses into some sort of translation software and posting the resulting text because honestly your posts read like jibberish?

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Cut the man some slack. He's just warming up for the Article of the Month contest.

BKonnak said:

Correctly. I too raise with good hands. What for to me are necessary limps with dust which can to get successfully in flop.

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"necessary limps with dust".... explain???

Poker Orifice said:

"necessary limps with dust".... explain???

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Perhaps he is a poet

dumpy620_84 said:

The Gap Concept then defines proper strategy with what to do with a raiser in front of you.

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Gap theory dosent work in NLH as it does in LHE.

In Limit, gap theory tells you that you need a better hand to call than to make the raise yourself.

In NLH gap theory really takes place on the flop. i.e. in Limit HE, 77 has to be mucked against a single raiser preflop because implied odds do not come into lay.

In NL the 77 can call a raise because if you hit a set and feel that the guy will pay you off then its worth seeing the flop. However if you dont hit the set then 77 is not good enough to really play with post flop because you have to consider where it fits into your opponents range.

So in NLHE gap theory dosent really have much bearing until the flop, whereas in limit its a governing principle preflop.

Can anyone give me a quick description of gap theory?

Nice advice here next time I am going to try attacking the limpers, reading Gordons books he adds a big blind per limper as well as a 3 or 4 times the big blind is this correct?

Gap theory as described by sklansky is that you need a better hand to call a raise than to make the raise yourself.

The reason is say you and your opponent have exactly the same raising range preflop. We willl use all pairs for the example.

If your opponent raises then he has a pair, so for you to call that raise you must be ahead of his range so the minimum pair you could call with would be 77. That way you are ahead of half his range 22-66.

As I said previously, in NL gap theory dosent really play that big a part until post flop because of implied odds (which are much less in limit holdem)

EDIT: just thought of an easier example.. say your oppponent will raise with the top 10% of hands, then to call you require a top 5% hand.

As long as they don't limp-raise isolate them all day. If they mix in limp-raises you have to make a much more specific read to develop a strategy to counter them.

Stu_Ungar said:

Gap theory as described by sklansky is that you need a better hand to call a raise than to make the raise yourself.

The reason is say you and your opponent have exactly the same raising range preflop. We willl use all pairs for the example.

If your opponent raises then he has a pair, so for you to call that raise you must be ahead of his range so the minimum pair you could call with would be 77. That way you are ahead of half his range 22-66.

As I said previously, in NL gap theory dosent really play that big a part until post flop because of implied odds (which are much less in limit holdem)

EDIT: just thought of an easier example.. say your oppponent will raise with the top 10% of hands, then to call you require a top 5% hand.

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Thanks I knew this but did not know that was gap theory maybe I need a few more books!!

Well...I limp...and then i don't. My main goal as a tight limper is not to ever let you know what i have. And when I am not getting cards and realestate is becoming less and less I may limp more for the luck of it all. I understand everything about the stratagy and as a limper can take advantage of a quote normal stratagy from time to time, ya know, good timing and capture on the mistake of the average so called stratagy. A goog player will usually tell me what they have with their betting style and consistancy of bets. Does anyone else find it to be true and does not your stack size dictate a limp in, and the probability of the stack size determines bet size for a good poker player?

a good player should be able to adapt to your style of play and then use it against you, all the while, mixing it up a little just to keep you guessing.

allways raise to try and cut down the amount of ppl to make ur hand detoritate. If there limp/calling them f em, c/bet and c what happens. If they limp/raise then u've gotta think twice.
Punish those limpers by stickin in big raises in late pos. They mite jus fold.

But WVH's thoery is the best advice.

here here. limpers who don't really want to lose their chips will almost always fold pre-flop if they have bad cards. raise it up.