Dealer procedure

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ritamarie29

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I am a dealer in a popular casino. I have a scenerio i would like comments on

heads up players all in flops out and one of the players shows his hand to the other player and says you won you have the ace. There were two pair on board.He never tables his card He then tosses them face up to the much gets up and leaves. I muck his hand and push the pot to the live hand. He then realizes that he hand the wining hand...the floor comes to my table and I tell him what happenned..The floor tells me I should have read his hand The floor actually makes the other player give him the money back..Comments please..was I wrong?
 
wildyetty

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hand speaks for itself you were at fault!
 
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ritamarie29

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maybe I didnt explain properly..He mucked and left the room...he did not contest the hand at the table
 
wildyetty

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no he flipped them face up makes it your call!

simple mistake but could cost you your job! be more carefull when cards goto middle table face up their in play
 
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ritamarie29

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thanks for your reply really do appreciate,,,but not the middle of the table..one was on the muck the other next to the muck...he definitely threw to the muck
 
dj11

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I'm of the opinion that since he verbally gave up on the hand AND left the room, AND there is no way to reconstruct what happened, that the winner as you saw it was correct in not mentioning it.

However, you are the authority at the table, and should probably have read the cards before awarding the pot.
 
smallfrie

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Correct winning hand plays! They were face up, the dealer calls the correct winner if the dealer misreads the hand all players at the table should and are responsible for alerting the the dealer of the correct hand. If he mucked face down then it would be his loss but he tabled the cards face up and it does not matter if they were in muck the cards were clearly identifiable as was the correct winning hand.
 
OzExorcist

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I am a dealer in a popular casino. I have a scenerio i would like comments on

heads up players all in flops out and one of the players shows his hand to the other player and says you won you have the ace. There were two pair on board.He never tables his card He then tosses them face up to the much gets up and leaves. I muck his hand and push the pot to the live hand. He then realizes that he hand the wining hand...the floor comes to my table and I tell him what happenned..The floor tells me I should have read his hand The floor actually makes the other player give him the money back..Comments please..was I wrong?

Cash game or tournament? It doesn't make a big difference but still helpful to know.

And did the other player ever table their hand? Because that's actually the important part here.

The hand has gone to showdown, and in most poker rooms that means the other player must table their hand in order to claim any part of the pot. Even if the other player has mucked.

no he flipped them face up makes it your call!

simple mistake but could cost you your job! be more carefull when cards goto middle table face up their in play

OMFG some people really need to take a breath and calm down.

That's what I'm gonna do right now, before I type this...

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DEALERS ARE HUMAN. SUGGESTING SOMEONE SHOULD LOSE THEIR JOB FOR ONE SMALL MISTAKE (in a weird situation like this no less) IS INSANE.
 
wildyetty

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Cash game or tournament? It doesn't make a big difference but still helpful to know.

And did the other player ever table their hand? Because that's actually the important part here.

The hand has gone to showdown, and in most poker rooms that means the other player must table their hand in order to claim any part of the pot. Even if the other player has mucked.



OMFG some people really need to take a breath and calm down.

That's what I'm gonna do right now, before I type this...

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..
...

DEALERS ARE HUMAN. SUGGESTING SOMEONE SHOULD LOSE THEIR JOB FOR ONE SMALL MISTAKE (in a weird situation like this no less) IS INSANE.



What are you talking about its a fact. I've seen dealers fiered for less here. wasn't being rude like your drunk ass.
 
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From my understanding, if the cards hit the muck they are dead. It is the player's responsibility to protect their cards. It is difficult to get into "intention" of the player, such as someone may say, well he turned them up, they should be read, and someone might then say, well he turned them up, but was intentionally aiming for the muck when he turned them up and threw them in, intending to kill his hand... I cannot speak on dealer responsibilities, such as if you are supposed to be protecting the muck pile from incidents such as this. In any case, I don't think this is uncommon, and so I would be surprised if a room manager did not already have a default ruling to turn to in these instances.
 
OzExorcist

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What are you talking about its a fact. I've seen dealers fiered for less here. wasn't being rude like your drunk ass.

If casinos fired dealers every time they did something like this (or even for "less", as you say), casinos would have no dealers.

Since casinos do have dealers... what are we left to assume?
 
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From my understanding, if the cards hit the muck they are dead. It is the player's responsibility to protect their cards. It is difficult to get into "intention" of the player, such as someone may say, well he turned them up, they should be read, and someone might then say, well he turned them up, but was intentionally aiming for the muck when he turned them up and threw them in, intending to kill his hand... I cannot speak on dealer responsibilities, such as if you are supposed to be protecting the muck pile from incidents such as this. In any case, I don't think this is uncommon, and so I would be surprised if a room manager did not already have a default ruling to turn to in these instances.

Yes but the player's intentions do not matter. If he turns his hand up it's the dealers job to read them (sorry op). I've seen this happen several times and the dealer, before the player leaves, corrects the player and informs him or her of the situation. Seems pretty standard. I realize they hit the muck but they did so after all action had ceased and face up. Dealer error. Hey we all make mistakes!
 
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Yes but the player's intentions do not matter. If he turns his hand up it's the dealers job to read them (sorry op). I've seen this happen several times and the dealer, before the player leaves, corrects the player and informs him or her of the situation. Seems pretty standard. I realize they hit the muck but they did so after all action had ceased and face up. Dealer error. Hey we all make mistakes!

Its not all dealer error. I agree with you, if they are up and easily discernable from the other muck cards, that it would be standard to pull them out to be read. I do believe the error is shared between the dealer and the player, but someone who tosses their hand in the muck can't ever be too mad if they lose the pot lol
 
LeanAndMean

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Sounds like op really wants a vote in her favor, she made two more comments with a "yes, but" type answer. Sorry hun, face up cards are in play whether they hit the muck or not. Your pit boss was right.
 
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Its not all dealer error. I agree with you, if they are up and easily discernable from the other muck cards, that it would be standard to pull them out to be read. I do believe the error is shared between the dealer and the player, but someone who tosses their hand in the muck can't ever be too mad if they lose the pot lol

You're right in that both the player AND the dealer made an error but if I made this mistake as a player I would expect the dealer to make the right call and allow me to sheepishly take my pot... With a nice tip for the dealer if a cash game lol.
 
wildyetty

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its basically saying your playing a tourney on lets say pokerstars jam all in an misread your hand. so you close the tourney now you relize you won the hand and your not allowed back in to play your doubled up stack.
 
Delenia

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We all make mistakes, and that was a mistake. Whether the cards hit the muck pile or not, and regardless of what the players say, if the cards are turned face up, The Cards Speak For Themselves and the dealer should Always read the cards.
 
natsgrampy

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Yes but the player's intentions do not matter. If he turns his hand up it's the dealers job to read them (sorry op). I've seen this happen several times and the dealer, before the player leaves, corrects the player and informs him or her of the situation. Seems pretty standard. I realize they hit the muck but they did so after all action had ceased and face up. Dealer error. Hey we all make mistakes!

It is the dealer's call.

I was in a game and holding 2 spades the Ace and another.
On the turn, I caught the nut flush.
On the river, the guy sitting across from me went all in and I called. He stood up and says "you got the ace?"
I turned over the Ace and he threw his hole cards, face up, into the muck, and said nice hand and turned to leave.
The dealer then read his cards and he had a straight flush and didn't realize it. The pot was awarded to him.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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If he mucks his hand then its too late, the pot goes to the other player by default irrespective of hand strength.

Will teach him to wait next time.
 
OzExorcist

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If he mucks his hand then its too late, the pot goes to the other player by default irrespective of hand strength.

Will teach him to wait next time.

Not true, even a mucked hand can be retrieved and ruled live again if it's in the interests of a fair game - most commonly, in cases where the player who mucked did so because they were given false information.

I don't know if that was the case here or not, but what I do know is if the hand goes to showdown, a player has to table their hand to be able to claim any part of the pot. So the OTHER player needs to show their cards before they can win the hand. If they had've done that then it should have been obvious what the winning hand was...

If the dealer didn't make the other player turn their cards over then that was the biggest mistake here IMO.
 
Delenia

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If he mucks his hand then its too late, the pot goes to the other player by default irrespective of hand strength.

Will teach him to wait next time.

If he mucks (tosses the cards in face down) the pot would go to the other player. But if he turned them face up, it is not considered a "muck". Having them face up makes all the difference.
 
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CupOfSalt

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I am a dealer in a popular casino. I have a scenerio i would like comments on

heads up players all in flops out and one of the players shows his hand to the other player and says you won you have the ace. There were two pair on board.He never tables his card He then tosses them face up to the much gets up and leaves. I muck his hand and push the pot to the live hand. He then realizes that he hand the wining hand...the floor comes to my table and I tell him what happenned..The floor tells me I should have read his hand The floor actually makes the other player give him the money back..Comments please..was I wrong?

As a fellow dealer.... Cards speak my friend! If the cards are tabled face up then it is our responsibility as the dealer to read the hand. Even if the cards are tossed towards the muck, as long as they clearly identifiable then it is a tabled hand.

If you had any questions whatsoever during the hand in a situation like this then it is ALWAYS best to immediately call the floor. As a dealer are supposed to enforce the rules, not make rulings or make judgement calls. That's the floor's responsibility.

thanks for your reply really do appreciate,,,but not the middle of the table..one was on the muck the other next to the muck...he definitely threw to the muck

If he threw the cards face up towards the muck then the hand is tabled and therefore the cards speak. His hand is not dead.

From my understanding, if the cards hit the muck they are dead. It is the player's responsibility to protect their cards. It is difficult to get into "intention" of the player, such as someone may say, well he turned them up, they should be read, and someone might then say, well he turned them up, but was intentionally aiming for the muck when he turned them up and threw them in, intending to kill his hand... I cannot speak on dealer responsibilities, such as if you are supposed to be protecting the muck pile from incidents such as this. In any case, I don't think this is uncommon, and so I would be surprised if a room manager did not already have a default ruling to turn to in these instances.

This is actually incorrect (generally).

If the cards 'touch' the muck but are clearly identifiable then the floor can retrieve the hand and it is not head. However, if the hand is IN the muck and mixed up, then you are approaching judgement call territory but typically at that point the hand would be considered dead (though I have seen situations where this was not the case but that is not considered usual).

Also, per your "intention" part of the post... It is irrelevant because as soon as a player tables his hand face up, it is the dealer's responsibility to properly read the hand because cards speak for themselves.

We all make mistakes, and that was a mistake. Whether the cards hit the muck pile or not, and regardless of what the players say, if the cards are turned face up, The Cards Speak For Themselves and the dealer should Always read the cards.

This is correct.

It is the dealer's call.

I was in a game and holding 2 spades the Ace and another.
On the turn, I caught the nut flush.
On the river, the guy sitting across from me went all in and I called. He stood up and says "you got the ace?"
I turned over the Ace and he threw his hole cards, face up, into the muck, and said nice hand and turned to leave.
The dealer then read his cards and he had a straight flush and didn't realize it. The pot was awarded to him.

It is not the dealer's call at all. The dealer cannot make a judgement call on whether to read a hand that has been tabled face up (regardless of if it hit the muck) because the dealer HAS to read a hand that has been tabled face up.

If a player argued or contested this, then at that point it would be the floor's call on whether the hand is dead or not. The dealer should never make a judgement call like that.

If he mucks his hand then its too late, the pot goes to the other player by default irrespective of hand strength.

Will teach him to wait next time.

This is incorrect.

If the player throws his hand to the muck face up then it is incorrect because the hand would be considered tabled at that point and is live.

If the player throws his hand to the muck face down and then immediately yells out HEY WAIT I THINK I HAD THE WINNING HAND then the hand can still be turned face up and tabled so long as the cards are identifiable.

If the player throws his hand to the muck face down, and then immediately yells out HEY WAIT I THINK I HAD THE WINNING HAND but the dealer has already mixed the hand into the muck, typically then the hand would be considered unidentifiable and dead. At the point, the floor would be called to make a ruling on the hand being dead. However, I have seen the floor called in this exact situation. The floor asked the player to name their two specific cards and the floor had the dealer search through the muck to see if the two cards were in there in order to table the hand. The hand was considered tabled and the pot awarded to the player with that hand. This is was a highly unusual situation and I myself, personally, did not agree with that ruling.

It should be important to note that in reality every poker room has different rules and ultimately rulings/decisions like these come down to the floor person making a call on the situation.

If he mucks (tosses the cards in face down) the pot would go to the other player. But if he turned them face up, it is not considered a "muck". Having them face up makes all the difference.

This is not exactly correct. Read my posts above.
 
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