Dealer miss deal....give me your thoughts

Crummy

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Ok, so I am at a local card club that I am a member of as of last week. This is only my second game at this place and I really enjoy the place, and their setup.... We are playing in a $40 tournament that had 12 players to start and we are now down to five players, top three places pay.

I'm in a hand with one other guy.... This guy is wild and plays any two cards... Earlier in the night he called my $5,000 all in with K8o, which only left him with about 1500 - 2000 chips. Blinds are 300/600 and I have about 4,000 in front of me, the guy raises 1500 I call with J8s and plan on comitting the rest of my chips on the flop. Flop comes 10 10 K with two spades... I know have four to a flush and this guy has enough chips in his hand ready to call my all in or put me all in depending on what I do.... I push he calls, while the dealer is reaching for the chips to pull them into the pot he accidently knocks 6 cards off the top of the deck and the fall onto the table. They are all face down, however they are spread out enough that they cannot be put back into the deck as the fell. We still have not flipped our cards over yet so the dealer calls the owner over and asked what he should do. The owner said to reshuffle the deck and deal them.... so they do, I lose the hand to an A2o that hit an ace on the river and am a little confused....

Should the dealer have reshuffled the deck or should it have been a dead hand and we got our chips back and moved to the next hand?

Personally I think we should have gotten our chips back and moved on... I've been in this type of situation before in a casino and that is how they delt with it. However it is their house and I wasn't about to argue their ruling.... I'm fine with the fact that I lost the pot... I really don't know what the result would have been if they didn't screw up.
 
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I agree this should have been declared a dead hand and money returned. I think I would have protested and asked for this result before the cards were re-dealt. Too late to do anything about it once you see new cards.
 
Sephiroth

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FIRED

The hand should have definately been dead and the tournament continued. Also the dealer should have been fired or at least suspended.:mad:
 
DINGO8MYBABY

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I played in a live tourney in North Dakota in July, and each new dealer was an adventure. Each one seemed to have their own policy as to how they did things and what they'd allow--not enough consistancy. It was frustrating when a dealer you liked was moved and you knew the one coming was an idiot. Thus, I can empathize.
 
jordanbillie

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Let's wait until we receive a comment from Oz about this one.......OZ?
 
Emperor IX

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If the betting is all done I'm pretty sure you're suppose to shuffled the cards back into the deck. I'm not sure where my book is though. Doesn't make sense to get your money back and move on. It's not like he's shuffling the muck back in. It's the same odds regardless.
 
StormRaven

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If the betting is all done I'm pretty sure you're suppose to shuffled the cards back into the deck. I'm not sure where my book is though. Doesn't make sense to get your money back and move on. It's not like he's shuffling the muck back in. It's the same odds regardless.

^^^This. I agree. I've played when there was a misdeal called and the hands re-dealt and I've played when the cards were put back in the deck and reshuffled. Anytime there are cards on the board, I have seen the deck reshuffled, the only time it didn't happen this way was when a dealer dropped the cards, some flipped up, others down, and they were scattered all over the board.

In your case, the flop was already dealt, no cards were turned up or mixed in with the board cards, the action had already taken place and it shouldn't matter what card was dealt next, the odds will be the same. Some online rng's shuffle the deck before each street is dealt - your situation really isn't that much different from those rngs.

It's unfortunate that you lost the hand, but if you had won it - would you still be asking this question?
 
Grossberger

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The owner made the correct decision. It's the same thing as if the dealer had burn and turned before the betting was complete he would leave the burn card reshuffle the remaining cards and go from there. Here are a few rules from Roberts Rules of Poker that may cover your question.

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button game, action is considered to occur when two players after the blind have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.
(a) The first or second card of the hand has been dealt faceup or exposed through dealer error.
(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.
(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.
(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).
(g) The button was out of position .
(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position .
(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.

IRREGULARITIES
1. In button games, if it is discovered that the button was placed incorrectly on the previous hand, the button and blinds will be corrected for the new hand in a manner that gives every player one chance for each position on the round (if possible).
2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.
3. If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.
4. If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule).
5. A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll ), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal.
6. If there is extra money in the pot on a deal as a result of forfeited money from the previous deal (as per rule #5), or some similar reason, only a player dealt in on the previous deal is entitled to a hand.
7. A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck, except when the next card has already been dealt facedown to another player and mixed in with other downcards. In that case, the card that was faceup in the deck will be replaced after all other cards are dealt for that round.
8. A joker that appears in a game where it is not used is treated as a scrap of paper. Discovery of a joker does not cause a misdeal. If the joker is discovered before a player acts on his or her hand, it is replaced as in the previous rule. If the player does not call attention to the joker before acting, then the player has a dead hand.
9. If you play a hand without looking at all of your cards, you assume the liability of having an irregular card or an improper joker.
10. One or more cards missing from the deck does not invalidate the results of a hand.
11. Before the first round of betting, if a dealer deals one additional card, it is returned to the deck and used as the burncard.
12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.
13. If a card is exposed due to dealer error, a player does not have an option to take or reject the card. The situation will be governed by the rules for the particular game being played.
14. If you drop a card on the floor out of your hand, you must still play that card.
15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.
16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.
17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.
RULES
These rules deal only with irregularities. See the previous chapter, “Button and Blind Use,” for rules on that subject.
1. If the initial holecard dealt is exposed, a misdeal results. The dealer will retrieve the card, reshuffle, and recut the cards. If any other holecard is exposed due to a dealer error, the deal continues. The exposed card may not be kept. After completing the hand, the dealer replaces the card with the top card on the deck, and the exposed card is then used for the burncard. If more than one holecard is exposed, this is a misdeal and there must be a redeal.
2. If the dealer mistakenly deals the first player an extra card (after all players have received their starting hands), the card will be returned to the deck and used for the burncard. If the dealer mistakenly deals more than one extra card, it is a misdeal.
3. If the flop contains too many cards, it must be redealt. (This applies even if it were possible to know which card was the extra one.)
4. If the dealer failed to burn a card before dealing the flop, or burned two cards, the error should be rectified by using the proper burncard and flop, if no boardcards were exposed. The deck must be reshuffled if any boardcards were exposed.
5. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if all subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.
6 . If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.

7. If the flop needs to be redealt because the cards were prematurely flopped before the betting was complete, or the flop contained too many cards, the boardcards are mixed with the remainder of the deck. The burncard remains on the table. After shuffling, the dealer cuts the deck and deals a new flop without burning a card. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on this rule.]
8. A dealing error for the fourth boardcard is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error. The dealer burns and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card's place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burncards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and deals the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on this rule.]
9. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot. (The rule for tournament play is you must retain your hand and show it if asked, in order to win part of the pot.)
 
lektrikguy

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Hope you both at least got comped a free dinner. That sucks. Right call by the owner but that sucks.
 
D

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grosberger everything is righ? where did you get those information? that are interesting ..
 
Crummy

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Awesome... Thank you all for the comments and your thoughts.... At the time I was thinking it should have been a dead hand, but I agree with the fact that the flop was already dealt and no other cards (mucked cards) were mixed in the miss-deal, so the re-shuffle was necessary. I would have really loved to have seen what the turn and river would have been without the mishap.
Oh well there is always next week.
 
Grossberger

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grosberger everything is righ? where did you get those information? that are interesting ..

Just do a google search for Roberts Rules of Poker. Those are the rules I follow for homes games and know like the back of my hand.
 
Effexor

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Just do a google search for Roberts Rules of Poker.

or buy the book, the one I have is paperback and is only 64 pages long.

mini brag: I won that book and first place for like $700 in a MTT that Robert Ciaffone was running. Apparently he lives fairly close to me here in Michigan.
 
OzExorcist

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LOL - my fellow rules nits have beaten me to it :)

First off, the hands definitely aren't dead, and ruling them such would be an epic awful decision. See this post: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/when-a-hand-dead-159537/

Aside from that, what Grossberger has posted is accurate. This is the most important part:

17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.

If they've fallen in such a way that it's impossible to put them back in their correct order then reshuffling what's left of the deck is the correct decision. Remember that the cards were going to be random anyway - sometimes the reshuffle will mean you'll lose a hand you'd otherwise have won, and sometimes it means you'll win a hand you'd otherwise have lost so it all comes out in the wash and is the fairest way of doing it.

Also, for those suggesting the dealer be fired / shot / drawn and quartered / whatever, I'm assuming y'all never make any mistakes in your jobs and, moreover, you always cap your cards, put your blinds and antes out without prompting, never act out of turn and never comment on a hand you're not taking part in while you're at the table?
 
PC69

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LOL - my fellow rules nits have beaten me to it :)

First off, the hands definitely aren't dead, and ruling them such would be an epic awful decision. See this post: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/when-a-hand-dead-159537/

Aside from that, what Grossberger has posted is accurate. This is the most important part:

17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.​

If they've fallen in such a way that it's impossible to put them back in their correct order then reshuffling what's left of the deck is the correct decision. Remember that the cards were going to be random anyway - sometimes the reshuffle will mean you'll lose a hand you'd otherwise have won, and sometimes it means you'll win a hand you'd otherwise have lost so it all comes out in the wash and is the fairest way of doing it.

Also, for those suggesting the dealer be fired / shot / drawn and quartered / whatever, I'm assuming y'all never make any mistakes in your jobs and, moreover, you always cap your cards, put your blinds and antes out without prompting, never act out of turn and never comment on a hand you're not taking part in while you're at the table?

Oh snap.. What yall got to say to that?.. I dont have shit to say because i feel pwned already

Tell em OZ
 
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I was originally going to say that I felt it should have been a dead hand, but after reading some of the points others made, I have to agree that reshuffeling is the best option. They are the same odds either way.
 
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The hand should have definately been dead and the tournament continued. Also the dealer should have been fired or at least suspended.:mad:

Ok the hand should be declared dead, but fired or suspended? Damn man thats harsh, it was a mistake. He did not steal money from the casino or something.
 
buckster436

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we used to call it a dead hand when i played at the bar yrs. ago, but then again, we were all drunk & made our own rules,,lol, guess i just learned something new,,, Thanks Grossberger.................... buck:cool:
 
OzExorcist

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Ok the hand should be declared dead...

Um, no. It really, really shouldn't be declared dead - see above.

Obviously agree with your sentiments on firing or suspesion though :)
 
Grossberger

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Ok, so I am at a local card club that I am a member of as of last week. This is only my second game at this place and I really enjoy the place, and their setup.... We are playing in a $40 tournament that had 12 players to start and we are now down to five players, top three places pay.

I'm in a hand with one other guy.... This guy is wild and plays any two cards... Earlier in the night he called my $5,000 all in with K8o, which only left him with about 1500 - 2000 chips. Blinds are 300/600 and I have about 4,000 in front of me, the guy raises 1500 I call with J8s and plan on comitting the rest of my chips on the flop. Flop comes 10 10 K with two spades... I know have four to a flush and this guy has enough chips in his hand ready to call my all in or put me all in depending on what I do.... I push he calls, while the dealer is reaching for the chips to pull them into the pot he accidently knocks 6 cards off the top of the deck and the fall onto the table. They are all face down, however they are spread out enough that they cannot be put back into the deck as the fell. We still have not flipped our cards over yet so the dealer calls the owner over and asked what he should do. The owner said to reshuffle the deck and deal them.... so they do, I lose the hand to an A2o that hit an ace on the river and am a little confused....

Should the dealer have reshuffled the deck or should it have been a dead hand and we got our chips back and moved to the next hand?

Personally I think we should have gotten our chips back and moved on... I've been in this type of situation before in a casino and that is how they delt with it. However it is their house and I wasn't about to argue their ruling.... I'm fine with the fact that I lost the pot... I really don't know what the result would have been if they didn't screw up.

Now after thinking about this I do have a question to OP did the dealer set the cards down on the table? Because the cards should remain in his hand until he is done dealing the river. Now that would be a mistake if he set the cards down and knocked them over. Am I wrong Oz? I have yet to be in a poker room that the dealer does not hold the deck the entire time until the river is dealt, I have never seen a dealer put the deck on the table until the river.
 
OzExorcist

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Now after thinking about this I do have a question to OP did the dealer set the cards down on the table? Because the cards should remain in his hand until he is done dealing the river. Now that would be a mistake if he set the cards down and knocked them over. Am I wrong Oz? I have yet to be in a poker room that the dealer does not hold the deck the entire time until the river is dealt, I have never seen a dealer put the deck on the table until the river.

That's correct - in theory the deck stub should remain in the dealer's hand until after the river is dealt.
 
Crummy

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Now after thinking about this I do have a question to OP did the dealer set the cards down on the table? Because the cards should remain in his hand until he is done dealing the river. Now that would be a mistake if he set the cards down and knocked them over. Am I wrong Oz? I have yet to be in a poker room that the dealer does not hold the deck the entire time until the river is dealt, I have never seen a dealer put the deck on the table until the river.

Yes, he kept all of the cards that did not fall off the deck in his hand. So would that mean the cards that did fall should have been put into the muck or no?

That's correct - in theory the deck stub should remain in the dealer's hand until after the river is dealt.

Same for you Oz... the cards that fell...should they have been put into the muck?
 
OzExorcist

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Yes, he kept all of the cards that did not fall off the deck in his hand. So would that mean the cards that did fall should have been put into the muck or no?

Same for you Oz... the cards that fell...should they have been put into the muck?

Nope, they shouldn't be mucked. The rule says the deck should be reconstituted "in as fair a manner as possible" and that can't be done if those cards are mucked.
 
jolubman

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I never really thought about this as I don't play live. I do think the house should have given you both some type of comp.
 
canucks921

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A little extreme

The hand should have definately been dead and the tournament continued. Also the dealer should have been fired or at least suspended.:mad:

I agree the hand should have been dead, but to fire or suspend dealer! That seems a little extreme to me. He made a mistake, dead hand, the problem lies with the pit boss ruling or tournament director.
 
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