Cutting the deck

sunirico

sunirico

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
966
Awards
12
Chips
0
In our home games the button has the honors of shuffling the cards, giving everyone a turn per orbit. After the designated dealer flaunted his shuffling expertise the deck is placed in front of the small blind who has the option of cutting the deck.

The cutting is accomplished by dividing the deck into two parts placed side by side. The dealer then takes the part removed (originally the top of the deck) and places the remaining cards on top of that. This is to ensure that no slight of hand trickery couldv'e arranged the cards to be dealt as the SB chose the top of the deck and not the dealer.

I hope that makes sense please ask if I should rephrase. I've always thought this was common practice but watching live tournaments I don't ever see this happening. I've never been privy to a croupier at the poker table so I would like to know.

1. Have you ever heard of this practice?
2. Can you ask the dealer if you may cut the deck in live poker?
3. Do you think there is a place for this practice in online poker?
 
Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 21, 2005
Total posts
13,666
Awards
9
US
Chips
125
Common practice at most home games.
 
L

lscwin1

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Total posts
57
Chips
0
It doesn't go to the SB to cut the deck...it goes to the dealers right...in a home game when the deal rotates...
 
P

pain_pain_go_away

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Total posts
281
Awards
1
Chips
6
As stated above this is common practice at home games when players have control of the deal/cards. But in live games where a dealer is dealing the cards, there is no need to cut the deck as the dealer is in control of the shuffle & deal, & they should have nothing to gain from messing with the way the cards are dealt.

In short, the cut in home games is to keep everything honest... Whereas the dealer serves this purpose in live games. I hope this helps. :)
 
M

Mailbox13

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Total posts
7
Chips
0
Agreed, you hate to think your "friends", wouldn't stack the deck, but..........sometimes greed takes over, always cut, saves from friends getting into fights, suppose to be fun! Keep it that way!
 
P

pain_pain_go_away

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Total posts
281
Awards
1
Chips
6
Agreed, you hate to think your "friends", wouldn't stack the deck, but..........sometimes greed takes over, always cut, saves from friends getting into fights, suppose to be fun! Keep it that way!

+1... I love my mates, but money seems to do funny things to a mans head... And if this offends anybody's sensibilities then they probably shouldn't be playing poker anyway! ;)
 
sunirico

sunirico

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
966
Awards
12
Chips
0
Cutting the deck is a security measure, sure and we're getting off topic discussing whether to trust others or not. What surprises me is that no one mentioned another purpose for cutting the deck, one which some religiously follow.

I was not aware it's cut on the dealers right as I always thought the small blind, the person who gets the first card dealt gets to do the honors. None the less I believe that cutting the deck for many is a means of influencing chance. In a similar fashion to blowing on the dice in craps so to speak.

By choosing the point where the deck is cut you inherently decide which portion will be on top from where the cards in play will be dealt. This also foster a sense of accepting ones fate as you chose the outcome instead of it all being left to chance... or blaming the dealer for being crooked lol.

Some people only take a few cards off the top, other split the deck in three. Often you hear some upset because someone did not get their chance to cut the deck before the cards were dealt. For this purpose and not purely for the sake of security and since this is such an integral part of the ritual I thought it would not be all that strange to request from the coupler an opportunity to cut the deck.

Which brings us to online poker where one cannot help to think, and many rumors abound, that the cards are rigged. For one you should know that computers are not random at all, not in any natural sense of random. When a computer gets to choose a random number between 1 and 10 for arguments sake, it will generally repeat one number. Makes sense why you see the same suite so often or all 4 aces in play for instance as the machine got stuck there.

If an option for cutting the deck is introduced in online poker no one can complain that it's rigged as you decided where it gets dealt from. I think it may also bring more reality and warmth to the setting which due to it's nature lacks the spirit of live poker to a degree. Is there a place for cutting the deck in online poker?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
1. Have you ever heard of this practice?
2. Can you ask the dealer if you may cut the deck in live poker?
3. Do you think there is a place for this practice in online poker?

In relation to casinos and online games (not home / self-dealt games) the answers are:

1: no
2: no
3: no

As others have said it's standard in home / self dealt games where the dealer is also a player, as a security measure.

But when the dealer is an impartial employee of the casino, not a player, there's no need for this. Allowing players to cut the cards would actually introduce the potential for cheating or card marking, not reduce it. It would also slow the game down. So no, no reputable casino anywhere will let you do that. It'd be akin to wanting to get behind the table and deal your own blackjack hands or spin your own roulette ball.

I think there was an online site somewhere once that allowed you to "cut" the deck, but it was a pure gimmick. The purpose of the shuffle in a live game is to deliver a randomised deck of cards for the hand. The cut is just one part of that shuffle procedure. Online there's no need for a cut (or a strip, or a riffle, or any other part of the manual shuffling process) because an RNG just delivers a random deck.

Some sites don't even have the deck in a set order at the start of each hand - they instead use what's called a "continuous shuffle" where the next card out is just selected at random from the remaining available cards at the second it's needed.
 
sunirico

sunirico

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
966
Awards
12
Chips
0
But when the dealer is an impartial employee of the casino, not a player, there's no need for this. Allowing players to cut the cards would actually introduce the potential for cheating or card marking, not reduce it. It would also slow the game down. So no, no reputable casino anywhere will let you do that. It'd be akin to wanting to get behind the table and deal your own blackjack hands or spin your own roulette ball.

Isn't this what a cut card aims to prevent and I am sure there are instances where an independent dealer requests from players to cut a shuffled deck but I will have to research some references to prove.

I always thought that if requesting to cut a deck it is commonly allowed.

I think there was an online site somewhere once that allowed you to "cut" the deck, but it was a pure gimmick. The purpose of the shuffle in a live game is to deliver a randomised deck of cards for the hand. The cut is just one part of that shuffle procedure.
True that the cut is a part of the shuffle or arguably its conclusion but I don't think it is for randomization purposes. Wikipedia[1] gives a good description as the reason for cutting cards.

wikipedia said:
The practice of cutting is primarily a method of reducing the likelihood of someone cheating by manipulating the order of cards to gain advantage. Even if the dealer does not plan on cheating, cutting will prevent suspicions, thus many rules require it. Some players also consider the cut to be lucky.

Hah! It seems my reasoning for the lucky aspect of cutting was spot on.

Online there's no need for a cut (or a strip, or a riffle, or any other part of the manual shuffling process) because an RNG just delivers a random deck.
I am not sure how they test these RNGs but I do feel that there are a difference in the results produced by any RNG as compared to shuffling cards physically.

Take for example a new ordered deck and split it in two parts. The one part will have 2 suites and the second will have 2 suites. Doing a riffle on these two parts and cutting the deck into two halves again, you should find a dispersion of 4 suites in each half. This is vastly different to producing a deck by randomly choosing one of 52 cards placed one top of each other. Would you agree?

Besides, online poker took something which was natural and turned it very mechanical and I think there is room to bring more of the physical aspects into this virtual reality and I feel using shuffling techniques instead of a RNG will go a long way to facilitate this. But that's a topic for another thread all together.

Some sites don't even have the deck in a set order at the start of each hand - they instead use what's called a "continuous shuffle" where the next card out is just selected at random from the remaining available cards at the second it's needed.

I know some casinos use continuous shuffling machines especially for blackjack but is this the case for poker? The thing is that it is not simply producing a randomly arranged deck, if that was the case it could be argued that you don't have to shuffle at all as the act of dealing already produces a mixture and players randomly fold so you can just use the discard pile and the unused cards as is again. But this is not acceptable in any live setting then why is it considered acceptable online?

By allowing us to cut the deck online it will still the suspicions that the game is rigged IMO and facilitates something far more natural.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_%28cards%29
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
*le sigh*

I'll begin at the top I guess...

Isn't this what a cut card aims to prevent and I am sure there are instances where an independent dealer requests from players to cut a shuffled deck but I will have to research some references to prove.

I always thought that if requesting to cut a deck it is commonly allowed.

The cut card serves two major purposes: one is to prevent dealing from the bottom of the deck. The other, much more practical, one is that it stops the bottom card on the deck from accidentally being exposed as the dealer moves the hand holding the deck stub.

I'm not going to say that there are no real casinos anywhere in the world that will let you cut the deck if you ask, because I obviously haven't been to all of them, but I'd be very surprised if you could find one. Generally speaking, in a casino the only cards you should be allowed to touch during a hand are the ones that are deal to you.

I'd be more suspicious that a player was cheating if they wanted to cut the deck in a casino. And I'd probably up and leave straight away if the casino actually let them do it.

Hah! It seems my reasoning for the lucky aspect of cutting was spot on.

N'yeah... read the quote again. It says "some players also consider the cut to be lucky". The fact that there are people stupid enough to think that is neither here nor there. The cut exists for deck randomisation and as a measure of game security in self-dealt games.

Take for example a new ordered deck and split it in two parts. The one part will have 2 suites and the second will have 2 suites. Doing a riffle on these two parts and cutting the deck into two halves again, you should find a dispersion of 4 suites in each half. This is vastly different to producing a deck by randomly choosing one of 52 cards placed one top of each other. Would you agree?

No, I absolutely would not. If it's been shuffled, a deck that has a perfect distribution of all four suits (not suites - those are fancy hotel rooms) in each half of the deck is no more or less random than one that, after shuffling, has the cards in any other order.

In fact, if you did somehow come up with a shuffle procedure that perfectly evenly distributed the suits throughout the deck it would be LESS random than an ordinary shuffle that doesn't care what cards end up where. DUCY?

Besides, online poker took something which was natural and turned it very mechanical and I think there is room to bring more of the physical aspects into this virtual reality and I feel using shuffling techniques instead of a RNG will go a long way to facilitate this.

I'm not at all sure what you mean buy "shuffling techniques". A randomly ordered deck is a randomly ordered deck, regardless of whether it was shuffled by hand using physical cards, or ordered by an RNG in a computer.

Just for the lulz though: there was a site (I dunno if it ever actually launched or was successful) that said it was going to use a physical deck of cards, shuffled by a machine, as the seed for its RNG. It was clearly marketed to the "online poker is rigged / I'd be a winning player if the RNG didn't keep screwing me / online poker is so unnatural compared to live poker" market.

Here's the fun part: someone smarter than me on another forum did the math to prove that its results were far less random than an ordinary RNG shuffle, and the system was therefore inferior.

This thread may interest you BTW: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...gged-megathread-all-rigged-roads-lead-228298/

I know some casinos use continuous shuffling machines especially for blackjack but is this the case for poker? The thing is that it is not simply producing a randomly arranged deck, if that was the case it could be argued that you don't have to shuffle at all as the act of dealing already produces a mixture and players randomly fold so you can just use the discard pile and the unused cards as is again. But this is not acceptable in any live setting then why is it considered acceptable online?

In a brick and mortar casino? No, nobody would ever continuously shuffle in a poker game. It'd result in a less secure game (cards could be flashed) and it'd slow things down needlessly.

And you couldn't simply reuse the deck without shuffling because observant players would know what order at least some of the cards would be in from the previous hand (their own cards, board cards, any other cards turned up at showdown). For example, if you folded 3s 7c the previous hand and you got 3s again the next hand, you could reasonably surmise that one of the players next to you received 7c.

As for why they'd use a continuous shuffle online... eh, my question is why not? It makes no practical difference to the outcome of the hand and it's theoretically more secure than having an ordered deck. If someone somehow managed to hack the site's software so they could see the preordered deck they'd know what was coming next - whereas that's not possible with a continuous shuffle.

If I remember correctly, the classic examples were poker stars and Full Tilt - I believe Stars used to use a preordered deck, while Full Tilt used "continuous shuffling". I don't know if that's still the case post-Black Friday.

A serious question: do you think it's a problem that online poker doesn't use burn cards?

By allowing us to cut the deck online it will still the suspicions that the game is rigged IMO and facilitates something far more natural.

LOL - no, I promise you it won't. The rigtards would be just as loud as ever even if you did allow them to "cut" the deck.
 
R

Robadob925

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Total posts
14
Chips
0
Always cut the deck! and burn those cards too
 
sunirico

sunirico

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
966
Awards
12
Chips
0
*le sigh*

Sounds just as condescending in french but ok I'll bite...

The cut card serves two major purposes: one is to prevent dealing from the bottom of the deck. The other, much more practical, one is that it stops the bottom card on the deck from accidentally being exposed as the dealer moves the hand holding the deck stub.
Does it not also prevent the cutter (or is it cuttee? you'll correct me if wrong) from handling the deck and thus prevents them from cheating and wasn't this your original qualm with cutting in the first place?

I'm not going to say that there are no real casinos anywhere in the world that will let you cut the deck if you ask, because I obviously haven't been to all of them, but I'd be very surprised if you could find one. Generally speaking, in a casino the only cards you should be allowed to touch during a hand are the ones that are deal to you.
Aside from poker I can't think of one casino card game that requires a punter to touch their cards ymmv. Solved by using a cut card...

I'd be more suspicious that a player was cheating if they wanted to cut the deck in a casino. And I'd probably up and leave straight away if the casino actually let them do it.
Casino games are generally you (and the suspicious character) against the house, how does him/her cheating affect you? Also solved by using a cut card...

N'yeah... read the quote again. It says "some players also consider the cut to be lucky". The fact that there are people stupid enough to think that is neither here nor there. The cut exists for deck randomisation and as a measure of game security in self-dealt games.
How does a straight cut change the order of the cards to be considered a function of randomizing, I guess we should just agree to disagree. I am sure you can logically perceive the notion of variance or tilt and how this may impact your game. Is it that hard to conceive that people may resort to ritual in order to improve their demeanor? Even if it is implausible that it has any direct influence on luck perse it may still improve their game.

No, I absolutely would not. If it's been shuffled, a deck that has a perfect distribution of all four suits (not suites - those are fancy hotel rooms) in each half of the deck is no more or less random than one that, after shuffling, has the cards in any other order.

In fact, if you did somehow come up with a shuffle procedure that perfectly evenly distributed the suits throughout the deck it would be LESS random than an ordinary shuffle that doesn't care what cards end up where. DUCY?

I'm not at all sure what you mean buy "shuffling techniques". A randomly ordered deck is a randomly ordered deck, regardless of whether it was shuffled by hand using physical cards, or ordered by an RNG in a computer.

Just for the lulz though: there was a site (I dunno if it ever actually launched or was successful) that said it was going to use a physical deck of cards, shuffled by a machine, as the seed for its RNG. It was clearly marketed to the "online poker is rigged / I'd be a winning player if the RNG didn't keep screwing me / online poker is so unnatural compared to live poker" market.

Here's the fun part: someone smarter than me on another forum did the math to prove that its results were far less random than an ordinary RNG shuffle, and the system was therefore inferior.

This thread may interest you BTW: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...gged-megathread-all-rigged-roads-lead-228298/
ISWYM! From your logical argument any result other than a sequentially ordered deck is considered random it is futile to argue the degree of randomness from different methods of shuffling so I will concede.

In a brick and mortar casino? No, nobody would ever continuously shuffle in a poker game. It'd result in a less secure game (cards could be flashed) and it'd slow things down needlessly.
I think they use machines for that...

And you couldn't simply reuse the deck without shuffling because observant players would know what order at least some of the cards would be in from the previous hand (their own cards, board cards, any other cards turned up at showdown). For example, if you folded 3s 7c the previous hand and you got 3s again the next hand, you could reasonably surmise that one of the players next to you received 7c.
That is if you knew they didn't shuffle but what if you knew the RNG is not all that random and you are very likely to see all of the same suit in play does this change your game? But it doesn't matter really as long as the cards are random..

As for why they'd use a continuous shuffle online... eh, my question is why not? It makes no practical difference to the outcome of the hand and it's theoretically more secure than having an ordered deck. If someone somehow managed to hack the site's software so they could see the preordered deck they'd know what was coming next - whereas that's not possible with a continuous shuffle.

If I remember correctly, the classic examples were Poker Stars and Full Tilt - I believe Stars used to use a preordered deck, while Full Tilt used "continuous shuffling". I don't know if that's still the case post-Black Friday.
I don't understand your sentiment, the cards are dealt on the server not the client software. If you are able to hack the order of the deck that is the least of our concerns because then you already have the board and everyone's hands and how you shuffled the deck is of little importance. DUCY?

A serious question: do you think it's a problem that online poker doesn't use burn cards?
Why should that matter the deck is random, isn't it? Since the dealer in a live game is impartial why do we burn cards there?

LOL - no, I promise you it won't. The rigtards would be just as loud as ever even if you did allow them to "cut" the deck.
I'll take your promise but would prefer facts. If nothing else it gives someone to blame as you did cut the cards after all.
 
S

SnowedIn

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Total posts
188
Chips
0
Grosvenor casino dealers in the UK shuffle then split the deck into two halves, they then collect all the antes and/or make sure that the blinds are in. Then they put the two decks together and begin dealing.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Does it not also prevent the cutter (or is it cuttee? you'll correct me if wrong) from handling the deck and thus prevents them from cheating and wasn't this your original qualm with cutting in the first place?

Erm... no? Cut cards prevent dealing from the bottom of the deck, and ensure that the bottom card on the deck isn't flashed to the players. That's about it.

Both the dealer and the person cutting the cards (if it's someone other than the dealer) have to "handle" the deck. Can you give an example of what else you think the cut card is preventing?

Aside from poker I can't think of one casino card game that requires a punter to touch their cards ymmv. Solved by using a cut card...

There's baccarat for starters - hell, being allowed to squeeze and fondle your cards (and even rip them up after the hand, depending on where / how high you're playing) seems to be the major attraction to the game for some punters.

Then there's pai gow poker, some places deal face-down blackjack where the player handles the cards after they're dealt to them, there's no doubt others too.

And using a cut card (in those games, or poker) doesn't do anything to prevent card marking, edge sorting (where deck flaws allow it) or any number of other cheating methods.

Casino games are generally you (and the suspicious character) against the house, how does him/her cheating affect you? Also solved by using a cut card...

As discussed above, the cut card doesn't solve any of the problems I'm worried about, and I was talking specifically about poker in that instance, where the cheating player would very definitely affect me...

How does a straight cut change the order of the cards to be considered a function of randomizing, I guess we should just agree to disagree. I am sure you can logically perceive the notion of variance or tilt and how this may impact your game. Is it that hard to conceive that people may resort to ritual in order to improve their demeanor? Even if it is implausible that it has any direct influence on luck perse it may still improve their game.

*shrugs*

Sure I can see how it might make some people feel more in control of their luck or emotions or something. I just don't think that's a good enough reason to slow the game down unnecessarily for us sane and balanced people :p

I think they use machines for that...

I guess you could come up with a continuous shuffling machine for poker... it'd mean dealing out of a shoe and it'd also mean you'd never be able to cut the cards like you originally wanted.

It'll also never happen because it's solving a "problem" that doesn't actually exist. Continuous shuffling machines exist in blackjack to prevent card counting, something which isn't an issue in poker.

Why should that matter the deck is random, isn't it? Since the dealer in a live game is impartial why do we burn cards there?

Burn cards are there mostly as a protection from marked cards - if there's any kind of mark on the top card on the deck there's a chance some players may know what's going to come on the board, which is why the top card is discarded and the next card down is used.

In the event there IS a marked card on top of the deck yes, that means the players in the know are aware of what the next card definitely will NOT be, but no system is perfect and it's at least better than knowing what WILL be on the board.

Anyway, my point was that if you don't mind that online poker doesn't have burn cards (because they're redundant) then you also shouldn't mind that online poker doesn't have a cut... because it's redundant.
 
L

Larrysongs

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Total posts
1
Chips
0
In home games, the reason the cut is to the right of the dealer is because most people are right handed.
I was one of the most well respected dealers in NV,,, GM of a 37 table room... Trained 50 dealers... Owned a dealing school...etc.
A right handed person picks up the deck with the right and places it into the left hand... Then, distributes. So, the cut is to the right. Deck is picked up with the right..placed into the left and the right deals the top card!
In casinos.. The dealer always cuts.. One-Handed!
 
J

JVal

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 20, 2015
Total posts
41
Chips
0
no

dealer always cuts the cards never a player

in blackjack a player can insert the cut card

then dealer will cut the deck at the spot and put it in the shoe

maybe that is what youre thinking about
 
Top