"Coffee Housing"

wsorbust

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I have someone go all in preflop then stating his hand in the chat box, with the rest of the table left to act last night. I'm pretty sure this is against the rules, so I venture over to PS's rules page and find this. I've never heard of such a thing.

7. In cash games only, players still in a hand may chat about what cards they claim to hold. This is "coffee-housing," which is common in poker. However, players (in the hand or not) may not coach or otherwise suggest how another player should play his hand. For example, it is okay to say "You should call; I'm bluffing." It is not okay to say, "You should call; he's bluffing."
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Ok. Fine, but how can rule 7 not contradict rule 8? Maybe his doesn't apply preflop? You got me.

9. In both cash games and tournaments, if there are more than two players left in a pot, players (in the hand or not) may not chat anything that might reasonably be interpreted as affecting the play of the hand. For instance, suppose players A, B, and C are in a hand. A bets, and B is next to act. C may not chat, "I'm going to fold" (whether he intends to fold or not).
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Oh, yeah. I did a nice job quoting that misspelling in the title. bah!
 
pantin007

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all they are saying is that if u made the play u can talk about the hand but if u didnt make the play u shouldnt say anything about the person making the play in the hand.......im confused now
 
Steveg1976

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Rule #9 says more than two players can't chat about the cards.Two players left in a cash game can.
 
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S

switch0723

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why is it called coffee housing?
 
wsorbust

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I guess back in the day it's like being in a coffee house and chatting it up with old friends while sippin' one down..? lol If that's the case, I frankly don't think it's a rule that should apply to online play, especially a table full of strangers.
 
smd173

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wsorbust said:
Quote:
9. In both cash games and tournaments, if there are more than two players left in a pot, players (in the hand or not) may not chat anything that might reasonably be interpreted as affecting the play of the hand. For instance, suppose players A, B, and C are in a hand. A bets, and B is next to act. C may not chat, "I'm going to fold" (whether he intends to fold or not).
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In this rule, it would be inappropriate for player C to chat since they would be out of turn. B could say what he wanted to about his hand but not A's.
 
pkrplr4116

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It's also an expression used in professional Srabble, where most professional Scrabble players frown on any sort of chatting while playing. Not the mnost sociable of groups...yet, they almost liken themselves to poker players (who stop chatting) or calling each other names
switch0723 said:
why is it called coffee housing?
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SubT33

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This is how I read the two rules.

#7 is saying that it is ok to talk about your hand after you have put someone to a decision. You have made your play and now others must decide what course of action they want to take. You can play with their head while they are making this decision. You can make them some coffee.

#9 is saying you haven't acted yet but you are going to give away information about your intent prior to your acting. This goes against rule #9.

I guess the difference is whether you have acted or not. But going back to rule #7, when you're trying to mess with someones head. Does it have to stay general like, "you should call" or can you be specific like "I'm gonna knock you upside the head with these tre deuces", because I know Norman Chad has said this specificity is against the rules.
 
zachvac

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I always thought you couldn't talk about the hand unless it was HU and you were one of the 2 still in the hand.
 
Jack Daniels

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zachvac said:
I always thought you couldn't talk about the hand unless it was HU and you were one of the 2 still in the hand.
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Zach is correct. This is what the rules are saying, the rules just say it in a confusing way. Basically, in a cash game, they ONLY players that can talk about a hand are the ones left in it (rule 7) and only when there are only two of them (rule 9). External players may not coach either player or comment on the action.

EDIT: Oh, and I fixed the title. ;)
 
wsorbust

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EDIT: Oh, and I fixed the title.
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Thanks.

I mislabeled rule 9 also, it's supposed to be #8. Don't worry about it though.

Zach is correct. This is what the rules are saying, the rules just say it in a confusing way. Basically, in a cash game, they ONLY players that can talk about a hand are the ones left in it (rule 7) and only when there are only two of them (rule 9). External players may not coach either player or comment on the action.
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Zach is not correct in PS's eyes. The Coffee housing was legal in my situation no matter if there was almost everyone at the table still in the hand and left to act preflop. I did contact PS, because I believe it was against the rules and it possibly induced a call. Frankly, I was pissed after I lost the hand. There's nothing I could have done, coffee housing or not, since the player stating his hand won it. I'll post what PS's response is, when they send the explanation to my question that rule 8 essentially negates rule 7 in the case.
 
Jack Daniels

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Forget coffee housing for a minute...did the guy reveal his real hand? If so then he did break the rules. A player is not allowed to divulge their true hand in the middle of a hand like that.
 
wsorbust

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Yes. It was his real hand. I'm quick enough to know it's not breaking the rules if you bs people a fake hand. ;)
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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Is it against the rules if, before ANY actions have taken place, say you're 1st to act pre-flop, and you tell everyone "I have XX and need to go, who wants it" and click all in? I've done this in free rolls and small (very small) buy-ins if I have to get going. I ONLY do it if no one has acted.
 
zachvac

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K_Kahne_Fan said:
Is it against the rules if, before ANY actions have taken place, say you're 1st to act pre-flop, and you tell everyone "I have XX and need to go, who wants it" and click all in? I've done this in free rolls and small (very small) buy-ins if I have to get going. I ONLY do it if no one has acted.
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this is illegal.
 
riffpoker

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clowns

and i'll add to what zak said.......donking off your chips is lame and unsportsmanlike.....IF YOU HAVE TO GO........... SIT OUT AND LET YOUR STACK GET BLINDED OFF......i hate those clowns that disrupt play unfairly and give edges to other opponents simply because THEY dont have the time to finish what they started.......lame
 
wsorbust

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It was in a micro .01/.02 ring game ;)
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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riffpoker said:
and i'll add to what zak said.......donking off your chips is lame and unsportsmanlike.....IF YOU HAVE TO GO........... SIT OUT AND LET YOUR STACK GET BLINDED OFF......i hate those clowns that disrupt play unfairly and give edges to other opponents simply because THEY dont have the time to finish what they started.......lame
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I'm not trying to be lame, and there are different reasons people may not be able to finish what they start. However, I will be sure to simply use the sit-out feature from now on. I've only done this on 2 occassions and 1 of which was a play money table, so it's not too big of a deal, but I'll make sure to not do it again.
 
zachvac

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Going all-in in this scenario is not a bad strategy. If you have to leave, it's best for you to try to double or triple up and then you can sit out to the money hopefully. There's nothing wrong with doing that. What's wrong is when you announce your hand. You simply can't do that.
 
Chiefer

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this is a situation for AG to sort out. i swear, he know all the rules.
 
wsorbust

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I know I have taken a look at the rules before, and this is the first time I have seen this "coffee housing" rule in there. PS claims its a "rich poker tradition", but it's been about 7 hours and they haven't responded to me questioning how rule 8 essentially negates rule 7. My thoughts are they wont respond because they don't take too kindly of me questioning their rules, or they're trying to figure out how to bs me into thinking coffee housing, real or not, actually applies to online play with strangers, and would just like to ignore rule 8 because I'm sure telling your hole cards preflop surely induces more action than not, which equals rake in their pocket.
 
wsorbust

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This is the response. It obviously makes no sense, literally. I'm getting a drunk explanation from poker stars. Nice.

So their explanation is, even though there is more than 2 people in the hand, you can state your hand, even if it does affect other players decisions (how can it not), since there was 4/6 players left to act, as long as you don't state what you're going to do with it, it is ok.

The only way I can figure this out, is that there were no players "in the pot", or in the hand for that matter, at the point where he stated his cards. He then pushed all-in, and because it was preflop, rule 8 means nothing until someone actually called the raise and the money went to the center of the table. Even then it might be coffee housing if someone says their hand. Action means nothing preflop, even if someone folded before he said his cards or there are people left to act after. Coffee Housing. mmm mmm Good.

Thank you for your email.

Please let me clarify for you. In the hand pasted below the player told the
table what he had (whether true or not) and not what he intended to so with it. So he said "55" and not "55 and I'm going to fold it".
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Here's their response to my first complaint that it was illegal.

>>Thank you for your email. The moderators are chat moderators and deal with
>>chat abuse only. The issue here is a game related issue and that is only
>>dealt with by support.
>>
>>However after reviewing the hand I can say that the other player did
>>nothing wrong there. In a cash game, and in a cash game *only*, players
>>still in the hand are permitted to state what cards they claim to hold.
>>
>>This sort of talking (it's called "coffee-housing") is part of the
>>rich tradition of poker and some people consider it a favorite part of
>>their game. Its origins come from an attempt by the speaker to get
>>a "read" on his opponent's hand. Of course, that's not really
>>possible online, but the verbal banter has become a much-loved aspect
>>of the game. We strictly prohibit it in tournaments because it would
>>affect the integrity of the game, but we feel it's important to let
>>players have that option in cash games.
>>
>>Please note, however, that even in a cash game, a player who is no
>>longer in the hand shouldn't comment about his hand or his thoughts
>>about another player's hand. There is only *one* group of people who
>>can talk about the hands they hold or what they think other players
>>hold:
>>
>> Players in a cash game that are still in the hand
>>
>>If you remember that rule, you'll know exactly what's okay and what's
>>not.
>>
>>By the way, if you pay close attention, you may discover that some
>>players only coffee-house when they have a strong hand (or vice
>>versa). So rather than being concerned, we suggest that you watch for
>>information that may be available based on such chat.
>>
>>If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to get back in
>>touch with us.
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OzExorcist

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smd173 said:
In this rule, it would be inappropriate for player C to chat since they would be out of turn. B could say what he wanted to about his hand but not A's.
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Not quite - none of them should be saying anything about their hand, in turn or otherwise. C shouldn't say "I'm going to fold" because it will influence B's decision. Likewise, B shouldn't say "I have aces" because that will influence A and C's decision.

Live, dealers make judgement calls on this stuff all the time: quite often it's allowed to happen even though it's against the rules (the World Series especially is full of examples of douchebags not even involved in the hand spouting their opinions) and people only get penalised for multiple and blatant offences.

What I don't understand is why the rule at Stars is different between ring game and tournament situations... ? Sure, it's easier to get back into a ring game than it is to get your way back deep into a tournament, but money's at stake in either case.
 
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