Checking back the nuts on river

amxvulcan

amxvulcan

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Total posts
235
Awards
1
Chips
11
What is the rule in poker about checking if you have the nuts? I saw a player on pokertube get a penalty for doing that. Why?
 
S

SnowedIn

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Total posts
188
Chips
0
You can't check back the nuts on the river. Rule in place because there is no scenario in which this play would be the preferred one so it stops any collusion.
 
teepack

teepack

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
2,317
Awards
1
Chips
14
To clarify, you can't check the nuts if you are the last to act on the river. You can check if you are first in an attempt to try to get your opponent to put some chips in the pot.

You can't just check the nuts if you are last to act because it looks like you are colluding with the other player in the pot not to take any more of his/her chips.
 
rock0001

rock0001

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Total posts
1,098
Awards
19
Chips
62
to " stop collusion". I agree 100% with these rule however i would like to see other measures as well like softplaying or chip dumping.....
 
LeanAndMean

LeanAndMean

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
1,560
Awards
4
Chips
0
i consider chip dumping to be a bigger problem than checking the nuts. If you bet with the nuts, your opponent will probably fold anyway. Does this rule apply to making a minimum bet?
 
S

stevieboy4

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Total posts
16
Chips
0
i consider chip dumping to be a bigger problem than checking the nuts. If you bet with the nuts, your opponent will probably fold anyway. Does this rule apply to making a minimum bet?
My sentiments exactly in regard to "chip dumping":(
 
Sil3ntness

Sil3ntness

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Total posts
1,171
Chips
0
I accidentally "checked back" the nuts online. It was a *facepalming* moment. I had quads on the river. I think I was scared of getting D/Ced so I had auto call on just incase someone had bet on the river. Didn't want to be auto folded.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
i consider chip dumping to be a bigger problem than checking the nuts. If you bet with the nuts, your opponent will probably fold anyway. Does this rule apply to making a minimum bet?

Chip dumping is also a problem, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be rules to prevent other kinds of collusion such as this.

The rule doesn't care how much you bet, so you can certainly bet the minimum. Just as long as you bet/raise something when you have the nuts and you're last to act on the river.
 
timfbmx

timfbmx

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Total posts
433
Chips
0
Because there is no reason whatsoever you should ever be checking behind on the river with the very best hand possible. The only reason anyone would do such a thing is if they were soft playing/colluding. Otherwise you have the best hand possible BET! :)
 
Spiral46and2

Spiral46and2

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Total posts
194
Chips
0
So what exactly is the penalty online? Or in the real world for that matter? Would they ask you to leave or maybe judge it on the whole thing happened?
 
Panamajoe

Panamajoe

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Total posts
1,382
Chips
0
I hate to sound like a total dope but, what is chip dumping? It sounds like someone that is helping a pal at the table by giving him chips by folding or in with crap. If so how can you tell this from just being an idiot?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
So what exactly is the penalty online? Or in the real world for that matter? Would they ask you to leave or maybe judge it on the whole thing happened?

I'm actually not sure what the penalty is online, but live it usually results in you having to sit out for a set period of time (one round of the button, for example).

Tournament directors are given some latitude in how the penalty is applied though: if they believe it's a genuine mistake (ie: it's a casual player who wasn't aware of the rule, or may not have even been aware they had an unbeatable hand) then they may just give the player a warning, and penalise them if it happens again.

Probably the most famous example was Darvin Moon doing it on national television at the wsop, the year after he made his final table run. IIRC they gave him a one-hand penalty, because he was obviously clueless as to what the rule was and wasn't trying to soft play or gain an advantage.

I hate to sound like a total dope but, what is chip dumping? It sounds like someone that is helping a pal at the table by giving him chips by folding or in with crap. If so how can you tell this from just being an idiot?

It's pretty much as you describe, chip dumping is deliberately losing your chips to another player, in order to help that player.

How you tell when it's chip dumping and when it's a player just being clueless is difficult, I guess like most things in poker it comes with a great big "it depends" tag attached. TDs will take the full context and maybe prior behaviour or other patterns into account, as well as the specific action in the hand in question.
 
S3mper

S3mper

Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
Joined
May 13, 2013
Total posts
8,355
Awards
2
US
Chips
123
I'm actually against this rule. This rule does not stop cheating - all it does is penalize amateur players for making mistakes or misreading the board.

If I have the nuts and were colluding I'll just bet and you will know to just fold. No one cheats the way this rule is enforced.
 
Becky Eubanks

Becky Eubanks

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Total posts
5,001
Awards
39
Chips
255
Wow 1st I have heard of this rule - thanks !
 
thetick33

thetick33

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Total posts
1,888
Awards
4
Chips
0
i never knew this rule so is cool to learn it
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I'm actually against this rule. This rule does not stop cheating - all it does is penalize amateur players for making mistakes or misreading the board.

If I have the nuts and were colluding I'll just bet and you will know to just fold. No one cheats the way this rule is enforced.

A couple of things I guess:

- Remember that tournament directors / floor people do have leeway when enforcing the rule. So if it's a genuine mistake or a misread by an amateur, they have the latitude to just have a quiet word in their ear or give them a warning rather than a penalty.

- The rule is there to prevent soft play, not just collusion. The player with the nuts may have reason to soft play against an opponent, even if they're not colluding with them, to the unfair detriment of the rest of the players. Where the line on smart strategy ends and soft play begins can be open to debate though (eg: prolonging bubble situations as the big stack...)
 
S3mper

S3mper

Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
Joined
May 13, 2013
Total posts
8,355
Awards
2
US
Chips
123
A couple of things I guess:

- Remember that tournament directors / floor people do have leeway when enforcing the rule. So if it's a genuine mistake or a misread by an amateur, they have the latitude to just have a quiet word in their ear or give them a warning rather than a penalty.

- The rule is there to prevent soft play, not just collusion. The player with the nuts may have reason to soft play against an opponent, even if they're not colluding with them, to the unfair detriment of the rest of the players. Where the line on smart strategy ends and soft play begins can be open to debate though (eg: prolonging bubble situations as the big stack...)

I wouldn't even necessarily pull players to the side and give them a warning if they are amateurs. It could be bad for the game if new players feel out of place or felt if they have done something wrong.

I would agree the line for strategy and soft play would be up for debate. At least in the context of prolonging the bubble or even maybe gain some insight on what your opponent had. (IE. What Darvin Moon claims he was doing) *Whispers* " I think he misread his hand and felt embarrassed about it"

The other thing is this rule may make it harder to catch bad cheaters, if people are cheating by checking the nuts (Bad at cheating) then this would become obvious quickly to everyone at the table, the dealer and the floor man.
 
M

mcbogart

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Total posts
98
Chips
0
Not sure if posted, but Darvin Moon did this in WSOP the year after he got 2nd.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I wouldn't even necessarily pull players to the side and give them a warning if they are amateurs. It could be bad for the game if new players feel out of place or felt if they have done something wrong.

I would agree the line for strategy and soft play would be up for debate. At least in the context of prolonging the bubble or even maybe gain some insight on what your opponent had. (IE. What Darvin Moon claims he was doing) *Whispers* " I think he misread his hand and felt embarrassed about it"

The other thing is this rule may make it harder to catch bad cheaters, if people are cheating by checking the nuts (Bad at cheating) then this would become obvious quickly to everyone at the table, the dealer and the floor man.

*shurgs*

That's why floor people have latitude. I think it's important to bring the rule to their attention, in a nice way, though so they don't keep having the same problem.

I've never, ever thought "I checked the nuts to find out what my opponent had" argument was valid though - if your opponent can't even call a minimum bet on the river, then you've got your answer: they had nothing.

On the third point I don't think removing the rule would help catch bad cheaters - because once you remove the rule, they can argue that what they're doing is legal :p
 
S3mper

S3mper

Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
Joined
May 13, 2013
Total posts
8,355
Awards
2
US
Chips
123
*shurgs*

That's why floor people have latitude. I think it's important to bring the rule to their attention, in a nice way, though so they don't keep having the same problem.

I've never, ever thought "I checked the nuts to find out what my opponent had" argument was valid though - if your opponent can't even call a minimum bet on the river, then you've got your answer: they had nothing.

On the third point I don't think removing the rule would help catch bad cheaters - because once you remove the rule, they can argue that what they're doing is legal :p

I wouldn't use that argument either, just mentioned it since that's what Darvin Moon said - Though I still think he just misread his hand and felt embarrassed after he realized. (I do not think he should have been penalized)

Though if he or others wish to do it, they should be allowed as long as they are doing it without intent of cheating or soft play.

I think you can remove the rule and people still wouldn't be able to argue against it - Since collusion or soft play is against the rules, checking the nuts with the intent of collusion or soft play even without the checking the nuts rule being in place would still be against the rules.

I guess if you can implement the rule where it is more lax and wouldn't alienate genuine mistakes from amateurs. Not that pros don't make mistakes like misreading their hand or the board as well (Phil Ivey) but they won't feel out of place with such a mistake as a newbie would.

The two things that worry me most about this rule would be:

1.) Alienating amateurs and making them feel out of place
2.) a person making a genuine mistake being penalized and effecting the outcome of the tournament for that player. (Which in return would effect the outcome for everyone)

Another rule I'm not a fan of - Which I've personally been a victim of, is the have to be in your seat after the first card leaves the deck rule.
I was Short stacked after break I got back in my seat before any action came and the dealer took my hand away and said you had to be in your seat before I start dealing.

I was upset but let it go.. Nothing I could do about it at that point anyway.
 
Last edited:
rifflemao

rifflemao

Pugs Not Drugs
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Total posts
4,562
Awards
1
Chips
98
I saw a guy get penalized one orbit for checking back the nuts in a WSOPC event. He wasn't aware of the rule and was pissed.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
If we started taking out rules just because they might make amateurs feel "out of place" when they broke them accidentally then we'd have no rules against string bets, or hiding high denomination chips, or talking about cards during a hand... the list goes on and on. Amateurs do that stuff all the time.

But those rules are there for very good reasons. The checking back the nuts rule is exactly the same.
 
D

dumbdonut

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Total posts
89
Chips
0
Are you allowed to check the nuts on the river?

I was just wondering.
 
PokerFunKid

PokerFunKid

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Total posts
5,131
Chips
0
In online poker there is no penalty for it, i've seen players do it a few times against me. Not sure if there is something in the terms and conditions from a room about it. In live poker you can check the nuts on the river if you are not the last one to act. If you are the last person to act and check back the nuts, its a penalty and it depends on the terms and conditions what happens. Often they have to sit out 1 orbit for doing it.
 
fubarcdn

fubarcdn

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,443
Chips
0
I often check the nuts on the river if I am not the last one to act. Usually some over aggressive simpleton will go all in as a bluff and I will get all his chips.
If you are last to act and you check the nuts it is a sign of collusion and/or soft playing and that is the reason that there is a rule against it in live play.
 
Top