Ch. Ch. Ch. Changes

CAPT. ZIGZAG · Jun 7, 2009

So, all my gambling life, if you want to raise the previous bet, you must raise twice the amount of the bet before you.

If the bet is 10 dollars, you hafta make it at least 20, or expel all yer chips, if less than double. And if you do push, it hasta be twice the bet on the table, or the rest of the table can't raise. Only call.

So..... I get to the casino, sit in a seat that is prolly filled with more of my farts than anybody else. A hand comes up......

Guy bets 10 duckets. The next guy raises to 20 (the bet is now 20 duckets) The next guy pushes with 30.....

Now, the way I used to play, this should cap the betting. The guy that pushed. Didn't put in twice the bet (40 duckets)

I fold, and the next guy announces a raise. Me, AND THE DEALER, tell him that he can't raise because the pusher didn't double the bet. He calls the floor.

The ruling? He can raise, because the increment that the bet went up was 10 duckets. So the pusher met the criteria. (10 more duckets)

So now, you only have to double the increment to raise, not the full bet.

"All my life it's been this way" say I.
"That's the way they do it at The Commerce now too." says (a very young and know it all) him.

The dealer and I shared a glance of WTF together. :deal:

Oz, what do you think?

-

Stu_Ungar · Jun 7, 2009

Looks like they are using the half bet rule which is a limit rule.

From Robert's rules

7. In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player who has not yet acted (or had the betting reopened to him by another player’s action), facing an all-in wager of less than half a bet, may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise. (An example of a full raise on a $20 betting round is raising a $15 all-in bet to $35.) Multiple all-in wagers, each of an amount too small to individually qualify as a raise, still act as a raise and reopen the betting if the resulting wager size to a player qualifies as a raise.

In NL Roberts Rules states :-

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

So if its legitimate then it has to be a house rule. Ask the floor to show you this rule in print as its not a standard rule.

crow27 · Jun 7, 2009

Did the previous callers have to call the 1/2 bet or the full bet and create a the side pot preflop?
The only card rooms I've played at is the latter. I think that makes the most sense.

WVHillbilly · Jun 7, 2009

Ummmm....the rule is, and always has been, that to be a legal bet it has to match the increment (not double the previous bet). So in a $1/$2 game if you open to $8 the next bet has to be to at least $14 (not $16).

Also if the player who wanted to raise in your story hadn't yet acted on the initial raise, he's entitled to raise even if the all-in bet wasn't a full legal bet.

So basically both you and the dealer were very very wrong. I'm amazed that the dealer could even begin to make that mistake on such a fundamental concept.

Jack Daniels · Jun 7, 2009

Stu_Ungar said:
Looks like they are using the half bet rule which is a limit rule.

So if its legitimate then it has to be a house rule. Ask the floor to show you this rule in print as its not a standard rule.

I think you misread the OP since it was filled with twists and turns galore in story mode.

WVHillbilly said:
Ummmm....the rule is, and always has been, that to be a legal bet it has to match the increment (not double the previous bet). So in a $1/$2 game if you open to $8 the next bet has to be to at least $14 (not $16).

Also if the player who wanted to raise in your story hadn't yet acted on the initial raise, he's entitled to raise even if the all-in bet wasn't a full legal bet.

So basically both you and the dealer were very very wrong. I'm amazed that the dealer could even begin to make that mistake on such a fundamental concept.

^^^^ this 100%. Always has been, always will be.

-Phil Ivey27 · Jun 7, 2009

I've been playing poker for a fairly long time and ive always had some trouble with this concept.

So if its $1/$2 and the raise is $6 (4 more dollars than the big blind)
the person who wants to raise has the choice of raising it to $10?
(4 more dollars than the raiser)

And so if the raiser bets to $6, then gets raised to $10, then someone raises him to $14, then someone pushes all in for $14, there can be no more raises after this, correct?

WVHillbilly · Jun 7, 2009

-Phil Ivey27 said:
I've been playing poker for a fairly long time and ive always had some trouble with this concept.

So if its $1/$2 and the raise is $6 (4 more dollars than the big blind)
the person who wants to raise has the choice of raising it to $10?
(4 more dollars than the raiser) Correct

And so if the raiser bets to $6, then gets raised to $10, then someone raises him to $14, then someone pushes all in for $16, there can be no more raises after this, correct?

Incorrect, either the original raiser or the 2nd raiser can legally reraise (because they have yet to act on the 3rd raise). The only person in your example who can not raise is the guy who made it $14 to go in the 1st place. Note that I changed your all-in amount slightly to illustrate the point more clearly. So if both the original raiser and the 2nd raiser call the $16, the only choices the 3rd raiser has is to call $2 or fold. He can not reopen the betting.

Above

-Phil Ivey27 · Jun 7, 2009

^^ okay thank you very much.

But, after the guy goes all in for that $16, can the first/second raisers
raise it up again or no?

Like if the betting goes as such and the original raiser who made it $6 to go, will he be left with calling the $16 all-in or folding, or can he pop it up again?

WVHillbilly · Jun 7, 2009

-Phil Ivey27 said:
^^ okay thank you very much.

But, after the guy goes all in for that $16, can the first/second raisers
raise it up again or no?

Like if the betting goes as such and the original raiser who made it $6 to go, will he be left with calling the $16 all-in or folding, or can he pop it up again?

Yes. Either the original raiser or the 2nd raiser can raise because they haven't had a chance to act on the last legal raise (the 3rd raise to $14 in your example). In your example the only person who can not raise is the guy who made it $14 (unless the betting is reopened again before it gets back to him).

-Phil Ivey27 · Jun 7, 2009

Ahh, I understand.

Although, these would be rare conditions, and only in live, it's good to know.

zachvac · Jun 7, 2009

the reason is the total bet really doesn't make much difference. Say you bet $20 someone raises to 40 basically they're calling your 20 and putting 20 on top. You then have to put at least 20 on top if you want to raise. Then back to them it's 20 to them so they can either call, put 20 on top, or put more than 20 on top. If you put 25 on top they then have to put 25+ on top. Also assuimng this is NL/PL and not limit there's no such thing as a cap, you can have like 20 minraises in a row if you want.

jordanbillie · Jun 7, 2009

In response to OP, this has ALWAYS been the rule!!!! If somebody bets $10, gets min raised to $20, the min reraise would be $10 more to $30. Just go online and try it. I have had to call raises before when people really didn't want to raise (i.e. UTG raises to $6, a mid position reraises to $12 and it comes back around to the UTG who has $6 out there, he throws in $12 planning on it being a call [without saying anything], well that puts $18 out which is a legal reraise!)

WVHillbilly · Jun 7, 2009

-Phil Ivey27 said:
Ahh, I understand.

Although, these would be rare conditions, and only in live, it's good to know.

Actually it's good to have the knowledge even online.

Here is an example of why:

$1/$2

UTG: $40
MP2: $200
BTN: $200

You are the BTN with AA. UTG, a bad short stacker, opens for $8. MP2 calls. You want to raise with your Aces but if you raise a standard amount (say to $30) the UTG shorty can shove for his extra $10 and MP2 can call knowing that you can not reopen the betting.

Now if you're pretty sure that the UTG raiser will shove to any raise you can do something pretty cool by raising smaller (you can't make it any more than $24). Now when UTG shoves MP2 is stuck. If he calls you can raise again and get all your $$ in the middle preflop.

left52side · Jun 7, 2009

Wow this is a really good post.
I do not know the answer to it but have read all the replys.
And am glad I gained some knowledge on it.
Thank you for posting it.

tpb221 · Jun 7, 2009

WVHillbilly said:
Also if the player who wanted to raise in your story hadn't yet acted on the initial raise, he's entitled to raise even if the all-in bet wasn't a full legal bet.

This is what I was thinking when I read the OP. The way its written the guy who wanted to raise hadn't yet acted, so he's free to raise.

OzExorcist · Jun 8, 2009

Pretty much all been said above - the rules Stu_Unger quoted are the correct ones and the all-in player's push reopened the betting to everyone because it was big enough to be a valid raise.

As a side note, there was one company I dealt for that used the "double the bet" rule rather than the size of the previous bet or raise rule. That was for pub games where you could rebuy in the first hour if you'd had at least four drinks though... so you can maybe see why they chose the version of the rule that involved slightly less complicated math.

casinos, the company I work for now, the Tournament Directors Association and every online site (AFAIK) uses the version everyone's cited above where the minimum raise is the size of the previous bet or raise.

zachvac · Jun 8, 2009

Also note that even though all dealers should know this and probably do, not all of them are thinking about it when enforcing it. I still remember up in canada stacks were short enough one guy made it like 10 other raises to 30 I raise to like 55 (they were weirder numbers though so that made it harder for dealer) and dealer said I had to bet at least 60 but obviously once I pointed out that he only raised 20 and I raised 25 (again they were weird numbers like 14 then 18 or something) he agreed and realized his mistake. Bottom line another reason to know the rules because dealers are not perfect.

OzExorcist · Jun 8, 2009

Good point.

Remember too that in a casino, dealers are trained to work multiple games and poker may not be their main one. It's possible they only fill in at poker when someone calls in sick or when there's a big tournament on.

That's not an excuse for not knowing the rules, but you can see how it happens from time to time.

jordanbillie · Jun 9, 2009

OzExorcist said:
Good point.

Remember too that in a casino, dealers are trained to work multiple games and poker may not be their main one. It's possible they only fill in at poker when someone calls in sick or when there's a big tournament on.

That's not an excuse for not knowing the rules, but you can see how it happens from time to time.

I only deal poker.

Ch. Ch. Ch. Changes

CAPT. ZIGZAG

Legend

Stu_Ungar

Legend

crow27

Rock Star

WVHillbilly

Legend

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed

-Phil Ivey27

Visionary

WVHillbilly

Legend

-Phil Ivey27

Visionary

WVHillbilly

Legend

-Phil Ivey27

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zachvac

Legend

jordanbillie

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WVHillbilly

Legend

left52side

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tpb221

Chasing Gutshots

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle

zachvac

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OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle

jordanbillie

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