Cash game mentality vs. tournament mentality

Lheticus

Lheticus

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I'm starting this thread because as I go forward, cash games are something I NEED to grow into as a poker player. I've struggled greatly with then in all prior attempts to play them because when I was learning how to play, all opportunities to play I had were either heads-up with my grandfather (and we didn't usually even play hold'em!) or later on, in amateur leagues, usually in libation related businesses (bars, pubs...if you're from whatever government does that sort of thing, I'll gladly sell the acronym Libation Related Business to you for the government's use in reports or whatever.) These leagues would always, always be a tournament format--qualifiers akin to fast-moving 1 or 2 table sit and gos leading into a multi-table tournament with merchandise related prizes, like a TV or something for the tournament winner, for example.

The nature of my exposure to poker has led me to adopt what I consider to be a "tournament mentality" that unfailingly hampers any effort I make in micro stakes cash games. For now, I plan to focus on single table SNG games, but eventually, I want to go beyond just online play, and SNGs don't...well...exist very much in brick and mortar as far ask I know. Therefore, my eventual goal is to be able to play in both cash games and tournament games on the level of "winning play", but this is one hell of a gear shift to even attempt to make. The purpose I have in mind for this thread is to compile input from as many here as possible about how I might achieve this--everything from what to do different in cash games to how to get myself to do it without losing part or even all of what is really starting to develop into a winning tournament mentality.

I figure I'll start things off by elucidating on what I know of the mentalities between these two formats and the differences between them. In the cash game mentality, a positive "expected value" is utterly paramount--and if this principle is applied judiciously enough, if you accurately make enough plays with positive expected value, you are virtually assured of profit--provided you put in enough playing time so that the concept of the "long run" applies. This, to me, is cash games in their most distilled, simplified or possibly OVERsimplified form.

The tournament mentality is entirely different, for a simple, yet probably not particularly obvious reason: the "long run" does not exist. Each tournament is its own microcosm--you either have chips or you don't, you either make the money or you don't, and there is no dipping into a bankroll to cover the worse instances of negative swings. Rebuy tournaments mitigate this, but by no means extend ANY tournament to a point where the "long run" applies.

What causes the long run to not exist is simple progression--the blinds increasing after every X minutes or hours--in the case of online play, this rarely reaches above 20 minutes afaik. This change is simple to execute, but the fact that the blinds increase in tournaments and stay static in cash games changes, I would say almost literally everything. I remember someone telling me that an amount of BBs that I had bet and been raised into in a cash game, I think it was something like 15, was like nothing to walk away from in terms of a cash game. I cited a different reason--that there really wasn't a lot of respectably sized pots being played at that table--and maybe a couple others, but in addition to them, my tournament mentality tells me to see fifteen big blinds as HUGE, because in many cases, it can be. In turbo tournaments as well as in crucial stages of any tournament like a proximity to the money bubble or the late stages, fifteen big blinds can be MORE than the difference between making some money and making NO money in the whole tournament, or making a lot of money or a little, long run be damned.

Well, that's what I have to say for now, and with that I open the floor.
 
Kimpel17

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I'm very much in the same boat that you are- I am a regular winner in online MTTs, Sit-n-Gos, and even the occasional live tournament at my local casino and bar; but whenever I go into a cash game, whether it be micro online or 1-2 at a casino, I can never hold a profit. I love the term microcosm, it really addresses the difference in mentalities, and fits the mindset well. Even when I'm low in a cash game (10-20bb) I find myself shoving more often than raising to open. I like this thread though and am excited to see where it goes
 
dresturn2

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Cash games are great, MTTs are great. Poker is great!!! but seriously, cash games are a serious commitment, you can go broke really fast and you don't have time for emotions, the swings will happen if you play enough so you have to make sure you have the roll to handle them at the level you play
 
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TetraMinbet

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I'm having the same issue. I can cash tournaments regularly but my cash game is utterly abysmal.
 
BearPlay

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Great post, buddy!

Add me to the club.

Cash games just aren't my thing. I kept thinking that I needed to play them, just as you are now feeling, but eventually I just surrendered, not because of an inability to learn them, but for a lack of interest. I just don't like them; they're boring to me ;)

In the advancement of your ring poker skills, I highly recommend that you check out the following thread by John Zion, one of CardsChat's unsung heroes for the cash game.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/polished-poker-vol-i-study-group-227214//

Wish you the best; keep us updated!
 
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rw11687

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Its funny you created this thread, as I was thinking about tournament strategy/mindset last week. I am a cash game player and while I have had success in some tourneys, they are definitely not my specialty. Anyways, I was playing the Bovada $5k freeroll and really needed to cash to re-build my BR. So I really started thinking about my strategy for this particular tournament and how I wanted to approach it.

As I began thinking about it, I realized my downfall is usually getting over involved in a hand that I could have easily avoided, mostly due to a bad bluff or way to aggro. I am an avid golfer and I remember a saying the pros always use - "You cant win a tourney on Thursday, but you can lose one".

I realized that, at least for me, this was sound advice. There is no reason to get out of hand or get wild early in a tourney when there is a lot of play left. Just play solid and let the game come to you. Open up as the tourney grinds on and the table play allows for it. This may not be advice for all, but it has worked for me.

So, now to the comparison for cash games. Obviously the blinds dont go up, so you get to play your style throughout the session - blinds are not forcing you to make plays you would prefer not to. It is important to mix it up throughout the session, especially if the same players are at the table. I find that it is important (at least for me) to open my starting range in cash games.

More to come on this - but I gotta run to work.
 
BearPlay

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As I began thinking about it, I realized my downfall is usually getting over involved in a hand that I could have easily avoided, mostly due to a bad bluff or way to aggro.


Speaking for myself, this is precisely the reason why I prefer tournament play. I don't overplay hands, and I can let go of them quite easily.

It'll be very interesting to have you as part of this thread, to look at the contrast between the two beasts ;)
 
A2345Razz

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I play both profitably....and can show graphs.

Look, here is the crux of the difference...

In donkament play you WILL USUALLY be fairly shortstacked for most of the tournament which simplifies the game immensely.

Playing with 20BB is just pretty formulaic. You look for really good spots to take down blinds, you look for really good reshove spots to take advantage of overly aggy people trying to do that, and you conserve your stack in marginal spots like flatting a lot oop.

THE POKER IS PRETTY SIMPLE at low and medium stakes.

The PSYCHOLOGY is a lot harder for people to take; especially beginners.


YOU WILL LOSE ~85% OF TH TIME IN TOURNAMENTS IF YOU ARE PLAYING WELL.

YOu need to be able to be at peace with the fact that you will play well and lose....and lose....and lose again. You will get bad beated....you will get coolered....you will lose flips....you will go card dead and then run 10hi into KK in a good spot where you played perfectly shoving on the button.

That is donkament poker.

Cash game poker is much MUCH more complex.....and played with a much deeper stack usually. You don't need to be stealing blinds as much....or feeling like you need to consistently building your stack/taking risks. You can sit back and survey your opponents and what they think of you, and just play/develop your optimal game.

You can win more consistently....

You can play enough volume to know your win rate in a few months....

Its just different.
 
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rw11687

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Adjusted the wording of the last paragraph and continued:

So, now to the comparison for cash games. Let me caveat this by saying that poker is poker, and in a vacuum your going to play poker the same way. Your approach/philosophy to playing a hand shouldn't change, its the format and environmental factors of that format that will impact your game. As tourneys go on, you are almost certain to have your decision making impacted by a variety of items out of your control - blinds, stack size, and pot size for example. Your opening range and style of play will often vary based on these factors.

Cash games rarely introduce these types of factors in decision making. Pot committed scenarios do come up, but not without a lot of action throughout the entirety of the hand. So you can conceivably go multiple sessions without ever being pot committed. As such, cash games must be approached with extreme patience. They can seem less exciting to a tourney player as all-ins are more rare and many hands never reach a showdown. Additionally, understanding relative hand strength is a must. I often see tourney players over-value their hands in cash games when facing lead out bets or all-ins. There are no environmental factors forcing people to make moves with weaker hands, so players need to adjust their opponent ranges accordingly.

To me, the most important difference is post-flop play. Players need to focus on their opponents betting patterns/lines and really try to understand what they are doing. There are more complexities to betting patterns in cash games, mainly due to the same factors mentioned before.

I could go on but I am tired of typing :)
 
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rw11687

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Speaking for myself, this is precisely the reason why I prefer tournament play. I don't overplay hands, and I can let go of them quite easily.

It'll be very interesting to have you as part of this thread, to look at the contrast between the two beasts ;)

Understandable - its something I need to work on in tourney play. It doesn't impact me much in cash games, but that is usually because I can either get away from it earlier for some reason, or because one hand doesn't kill you in cash. It doesnt have to in tourneys, but it certainly can.
 
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We always want to increase the chips in tournament so we play normal cards too .... but in cash game we should win so we play only good hand
 
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This seems to be a trend, people are decent in tournaments but not cash games - I'm no exception. The main difference I've noticed between cash games and tournaments is to be way more aggressive post-flop in cash games and way more patient in tournaments. Playing "garbage" in tournaments can be beneficial too, at least in early stages when you can afford to gamble a bit and see flops. Hitting two pair with 9/5 off suit will probably piss some other people off, but .. well, the goal is to win. Slow playing, though. Those people deserve their own little corner in hell.
 
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In contrast to the cash game complexity,the mtts is a more relaxed game where you only need to wait and stay tight for some period amount of time.
 
Peteyweestro

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I really like this thread and will continue to watch it as i am like most here and can do much better in tournament play than in cash play. I seem to play to many hands in cash games i think
 
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In Original Post you mention Bricks and Mortar,
There is also as much difference in playing a single table live cash game and multi-tabling rings online as there is to tournament play.
From your original summary for instance it would be hard to put in enough playing time for the concept of the "long run" to apply for a bricks and mortar table.
So you might want to consider three types of mentality.

If you want a mind numbingly boring long game you could try deep stacked No Blind Increase Heads Up SNGs.
I have no idea whether or not it would help the mentality adjustment though, or just cause frustration.
 
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I'm very much in the same boat that you are- I am a regular winner in online MTTs, Sit-n-Gos, and even the occasional live tournament at my local casino and bar; but whenever I go into a cash game, whether it be micro online or 1-2 at a casino, I can never hold a profit. I love the term microcosm, it really addresses the difference in mentalities, and fits the mindset well. Even when I'm low in a cash game (10-20bb) I find myself shoving more often than raising to open. I like this thread though and am excited to see where it goes

In general you shouldn't be that low in a cash game, you should have topped back up to 100bbs.

You might have noticed the regulars all do it automatically.
 
Lheticus

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In general you shouldn't be that low in a cash game, you should have topped back up to 100bbs.

You might have noticed the regulars all do it automatically.

You've raised an interesting facet of the cash game mentality, one that I think deserves expansion. Anyone?
 
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I enjoy reading this thread because as I was reading it made me think of my play in both cash games and tournaments. I min cash a lot in tournaments, and it bothers me, but I guess it is better than losing. I am sure every player does it at some point, but getting involved in a hand where you could have gotten away with it throws a lot of psychology into the mix. I play way more aggro in cash game at 1-1 or 1-2 depending on roll. I try to take advantage, but so are others. I need to become the opposite in both of these places of poker.. Please continue to comment and post...
 
Snakmacher

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I love playing ZOOM cash games - it is fast - it is full of variations and twists and it is good way to learn how to frighten your oponents and other stuff that will come handy at real time play in stone casinos. Nice thread and I really read it through - I was in the beginning more succesfull in tournaments and now I am in both equally - and it is up and down :)
 
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In regards to what you say about there being no long run for tournament poker, I have to kind of disagree. I understand your argument, but we need to consider that in tournament poker, even the best players aren't likely to cash in at most tournaments, considering that there is even more variance in tournament poker winnings than in cash games. At least for me, I view each tournament entry as a "buy-in" and try not to attach myself so much to losing in one tourney. But in terms of a single tournament your analysis is pretty spot on.
 
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i think most people prefer tourneys, cash games seem pointless you just keep playing till you get tired. i play them but not near as much as tourneys. theres also alot of hurtful luck in cash games if i lose holding aa or kk in a tourney it wont hurt as much as losing my whole stack in a cash game
 
MrPokerVerse

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I'm normally more prone to play more hands with implied odds at cash table than when playing MTT. More to consider with MTT with blinds and stack size.
 
TeUnit

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i think a lot of it may be the games require slightly different skill sets, ie cash is usually more about post flop play, and in mtts i think a its more of a preflop game

i think a lot of this may be driven by stack depths and icm considerations
 
Mase31683

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In general you shouldn't be that low in a cash game, you should have topped back up to 100bbs.

You might have noticed the regulars all do it automatically.

You've raised an interesting facet of the cash game mentality, one that I think deserves expansion. Anyone?

If someone makes a mistake for big bets it's not usually going to be me. Therefore I want as much money on the table as possible so when a villain does make a mistake for a lot of bb's I cover him or at least have the max buy-in I can have on the table.
 
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I'm in this same situation. I win quite often in tourneys and sngs but at no limit cash games I suck. My main game at the moment is Limit Holdem cash games but I'm trying to make the transition to No limit. At Limit I can multitable up to 24 tables and win consistently but whenever I try at no limit the swings just seem to be insane for me. I'm currently studying Harrington on cash games to see if this can give me an insight. I shall follow this thread with anticipation
 
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