Beginners frustration

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fearlessfly09

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I have been playing sit n go`s for about 5 months, mostly 2.00, 3.00 and 5.00 games, I am still a beginner for sure but I seem to be running into a problem. It seems no matter what the game is, I experience constant over betting, going all in from the start of the game and all through till the end, its driving me nuts, why do people have to go all in at the start of the game just for low dollar blinds, or betting $800.00 for a pot worth $150.00 ? It really takes the pleasure out of the game, and of course, I have tried to send a few of these people packing when I had an opportunity to do so ( or I thought so ) only to have been sent packing myself. My question is this, would it help me if I tried to step up to a $10.00 game or will I find the same thing because I am still really playing at the low end of the money games ? I play at Pokerhost, it seems to be a good fit for just starting, if anybody can recomend a better site I`m all eyes.
Thanks,
 
Jackle43

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Play Cash games, Still alot of donks but it is alot more enjoyable poker at the micro stages...
 
Ronaldadio

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The honest answer is this..."You do not have enough experience"

I guess you are talking dollars? $2, $3, $5 SNG`s ? And No limit holdem?

You will get hit by people like this, but I know for sure they won't be doing this EVERY hand.

I play both ways. If, say, in early position, I am delt AQs. I raise say 5 times big blind (If a 4 times raise makes it 80, early on I'll always make it 100 - looks bigger)
Anyway, the table maniac that I don't know pushes all in it becomes a very, very east fold - I,m not calling with a hand that could be dominated.
However, with that same AQs and a KNOWN maniac, I will still make the same size bet, but when they push I'm calling - unless 2, 3 or more go all in.
You have to be patient and give them some of their own medicine.
They are bullying you out of a pot. Be patient. Wait til the blinds go up. Then start opening up YOUR range, pushing all in.
A lot of these people are not stupid - if they use the all in push as a way of winning chips, take that option away from them by pushing all in, but when u have at least a decent hand and when it is worth it.
I know this response is `bitty` but unless I know the exact opponent it is difficult to be specific.
Good luck and BE PATIENT
 
domeburglar

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I found in these sitngo's people are using this to try to double up early which gives them a good chance of making the cash.. you just have to wait it out and hope for AA and take them out lol..
 
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sryImPro

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well i would say that you gonna find donks like that,overbetting or so at any stake...i think it's not about the buy in...if you are an US player,try Americas Cardroom,if you'r not i would definitely recommend poker stars ;) Cheers!
 
OzExorcist

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Short answer (from someone who's played extensively at the levels you're talking about) is no, it wouldn't help you to move up to $10 games.
What would help you is to work on your mindset. You need to recognise that players making big mistakes like the ones you describe are exactly the kind of players you WANT at your table, because in the long run they're just handing money away to the good players. Focus on becoming one of the good players and don't let the crazies get you down in the meantime.
 
johndice

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it's all about mindset. just keep on playing the game and learn from your mistakes and study how pros play the game.
 
Arjonius

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it's all about mindset. just keep on playing the game and learn from your mistakes and study how pros play the game.
Study how winning players at your level and a little higher play. It's not about trying to play like the big names who play the nosebleeds. Their games are shaped for opponents whose knowledge and skill sets differ significantly from your opponents'.
 
Ronaldadio

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I agree with what the guys are saying.

I've been thinking. To counter this do what is well known by poker players do...if they are playing very loose, tighten up. If they are playing very tight, tighten up.

These guys in these tourneys are making big mistakes. I've seen them push all in when blinds are 15/ 30. So we have a pot of 45 chips, it is checked around to them, they push all of their 1500 in, to win 45.

The reason this works is 2 fold.
1) they suck out or
2) and more important, they know a less experienced player will call an all in push with things like Ax, KJ, KT, etc - but after getting pushed a few times.

So, my point here is also remember, some of these guys are not as `Donkish` as you might think ;)
 
SYWTWAF

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would it help me if I tried to step up to a $10.00 game or will I find the same thing because I am still really playing at the low end of the money games ?
If you're having trouble with the lowest stakes games, then it won't help you to move up, where players on average have a better idea of what they're doing. Some good general advice has already been given: 1) Embrace the loose donks in your game who are handing you equity on a silver platter. Sit back patiently, get it in with premium holdings against them, and profit. 2) Do make sure you distinguish between the genuine fish-donks and the relatively skilled players who are calculatedly aggressive. (e.g. open-shoving 50 BBs at the beginning of an SnG is a strong sign of the former, while the merits of over-betting a pot is more situational)
 
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TimboDub

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I'd go with Jackle's advice and start playing some cash micros as well. I started playing SNGs and was hemorrhaging money with what I though were good plays - suffice to say they weren't. Micros give you a good base for identifying true fishes who are making crazy bets and better players making shoves in spots with plenty of equity.
 
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dan abnormal

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Dont move up and remember youre gonna be frustrated (like me) a lot, I too thought moving up would mean people played more right but instead they just played at a level Im still nowhere near. Everyones advice to you is spot on. this game is hard as hell and than add variance its insane. But take baby steps learn the basics right and then you can build your foundation right, Unlike me who is constatntly having to go back and refocusing on the basics instead of applying new startegies I dont quite understand and therefore dont apply right.
 
TakinOver

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Take notes on these players. I play limit to prevent such nonsense. They bluff like crazy. Better than losing huge pots to NL or I like being able to call cause they cant go all in. Sometimes I gotta pay for the info and its cheaper. They get mad when I catch them. :boxing: They sometimes stop doing it 2, cause they no I will call. I know how you feel because I been playing those games. Was playing the dollar and 50 cent but had roll to play $2,$3 and $5...They play nuts still. I been getting hammered to these bingo players who have money to throw in the air like confetti. Sometimes I win and Most times I lose. Limit for me cause they just cant over bet.:rolleyes: Good luck.
 
dj11

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Two distinct groups will overbet as described. Those who don't know better, and those who do. No inbetweeners here.

The neophytes will think whatever it is they think about the 77 they are looking at, and the pros will have such a large bankroll, they can afford the early gamble and know that those inbetweeners will not contend for their whole roll.

I often think the best way to deal with STT's and many MTT's is to just sit out the first half of the contest. Not that I do it, but the thought just won't go away.

At this point in your learning curve maybe you want to concentrate on positional opportunities.

If, as you say, these folks ruin the comfortable feeling you like in your games, change to limit games. But be aware that you will never (OK, very very seldom) find that perfectly comfortable feeling you seem to expect.
 
IntenseHeat

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I usually don't give advice on strategy. After all, what do I know, and who am I that anyone should listen to me? But we've all had to deal with this particular problem and I've given it quite a bit of thought over time.

I would agree with Ronaldadio, be patient and pick your spots. Obviously, if someone is making constant and repeated pre-flop shoves, common sense tells you they can't have it every time.

It's important to pay attention. When someone does call them, what kind of hands are they turning over?

Are they shoving with bigger hands like K-Q, A-J, or even something like Q-10? Or are they getting them all-in with any Ace or any pair? Or maybe they are shoving with anything that seems even slightly palyable like Q-8 or J-9? The kind of hands they are playing are going to determine the range that you should be calling them with.

Some players will shove from certain positions with any two cards. Rather than make a standard sized raise to steal the blinds from late position, they will shove all-in to prevent you from playing back at them. Some players use all-in bets to take advantage of perceived weakness at the table to steal pots. For instance, when two or three players limp into a pot in front of them, it becomes very tempting to shove all-in and try to take it down. The reasoning being that if nobody has a hand strong enough to raise with, then they definitely aren't gonna be strong enough to call an all-in bet. In fact, all-in bets early in a tourney (especially S&Gs) are specific tactic that some players use to influence the way others at the table are playing. It intimidates them and makes them unwilling to raise out of fear that this guy is going to go all-in over the top of them. The lack of a raise allows others to limp into the pot, thus creating the opportunity to pick up a nice little pot with, you guessed it, an all-in bet.

Don't assume these are all just donkeys and maniacs. Some are. Some have no real poker skill and are just there to gamble. These guys are looking to chip up early so they can have a stack to sit on and wait for pairs and Aces to shove with. For others, this a strategy designed to manipulate and take advantage of other players. They're likely to switch up once they lose a chunk of their stack. Either way it's important to shut them down early. The bigger their stack is, the more aggressive they are likely to play. More chips, more donk!

I can't stress enough how important it is to be patient and pay attention. Dealing with these guys is always dangerous. The best hand doesn't always win, and the worst players tend to get the luckiest. With time and experience you'll gain the skill and confidence to deal with them. But remember Fred, you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

For someone who didn't have much to say, I sure said alot, didn't I?
 
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johndice

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Do some of you sometimes rely in your gut feeling when playing poker? :D
 
Ronaldadio

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Do some of you sometimes rely in your gut feeling when playing poker? :D

Don't rely on it, but it comes into it.

If a player does something that does not fit in with the story, your gut feeling/ reads come into it.

But don't rely on gut feeling 100% because eventually gut feeling will tell you to call every hand ;)
 
IntenseHeat

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Do some of you sometimes rely in your gut feeling when playing poker? :D

Yes I do.

Sometimes I watch the hand playout and the story the guy is telling just doesn't make sense. Sometimes the bet sizing just doesn't seem right. Why so much? Or the guy who is constantly making pot sized bets, after being called on the flop, only bets ¼ pot on the turn and again on the river. If he had more in his hand, wouldn't he bet more? I would consider calls made in those situations to be gut plays. But there have been times when bottom pair seems to be such an easy fold on a threatening board. I'm sitting there with the pointer hovering over the fold button, just waiting for my opponent to act so I can fold my hand. He bets the perfect amount. I going to fold. CLICK. As I see the calling chips sliding forward on table in front of me, I wonder "what the hell?", as if someone else had clicked that button for me. I'm still wondering why in the world I would have made that call when the cards are turned over and I see that my opponent had total air. How could I call there? I don't know. I didn't intend to. Just something in my gut, I guess.
 
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PoopFlinger

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there is no rule in NLHE that says you can't overbet the pot. not saying its the best strategy, but you want to be in games with those players. the best you can do is to adjust to them.
 
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stevertrmurray

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These are exactly the mistakes you want to capitalize on. Get in cheap when you can but other than that early on play tight and let the maniacs sort themselves out. More often than not I end up with all that maniacs chips that he tripled up on the first hand of the game by the midway point.....odds are if they play maniacally early they will more than likely play that way through out....don't get frustrated and push with something just because of what they are doing!!
 
johndice

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These are exactly the mistakes you want to capitalize on. Get in cheap when you can but other than that early on play tight and let the maniacs sort themselves out. More often than not I end up with all that maniacs chips that he tripled up on the first hand of the game by the midway point.....odds are if they play maniacally early they will more than likely play that way through out....don't get frustrated and push with something just because of what they are doing!!

I use to play like that on facebook alot of times.lol
 
johndice

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These are exactly the mistakes you want to capitalize on. Get in cheap when you can but other than that early on play tight and let the maniacs sort themselves out. More often than not I end up with all that maniacs chips that he tripled up on the first hand of the game by the midway point.....odds are if they play maniacally early they will more than likely play that way through out....don't get frustrated and push with something just because of what they are doing!!

I use to play like that on facebook alot of times.lol
 
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Caesura

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I have been playing sit n go`s for about 5 months, mostly 2.00, 3.00 and 5.00 games, I am still a beginner for sure but I seem to be running into a problem. It seems no matter what the game is, I experience constant over betting, going all in from the start of the game and all through till the end, its driving me nuts, why do people have to go all in at the start of the game just for low dollar blinds, or betting $800.00 for a pot worth $150.00 ? It really takes the pleasure out of the game, and of course, I have tried to send a few of these people packing when I had an opportunity to do so ( or I thought so ) only to have been sent packing myself. My question is this, would it help me if I tried to step up to a $10.00 game or will I find the same thing because I am still really playing at the low end of the money games ? I play at Pokerhost, it seems to be a good fit for just starting, if anybody can recomend a better site I`m all eyes.
Thanks,

Is that a US site?
I play micro sngs at pokerstars and 888 and the key is to be patient and most players will destroy themselves. You should be able to get a double up with premium hands somewhere before the blinds start eating your stack. In the case of 888, I have made it into the money without winning a single hand a few times ( "voodoo" poker), but actually find Stars a bit easier simply because of the amount of beginner players. Occasionally you will land on a table with a load of reasonable players and it will be tougher but usually patient play will prevail.

With regards to moving up a buy-in, look at your ITM stats and see which buy-in you are most profitable on and stick to that until your bankroll lets you move up.
For instance I used to vary between 60c and $1 games on 888 and found I had about a 15% higher win rate at $1 so dropped the 60c games and am making slow but steady profits.
 
ScottieDuncan

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Different Site

Have you tried Bovada? It is a good site for your money limits. They do have a quad up for $5 that helps build your money fast. You have to play a bit conservative though. There are not many high bidders in these games.
ScottieDuncan:eating:
 
dirtyoldog

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that was all alot of good advice i agree be patient keep your chips its a marathon not a sprint and when you have a good calling hand nail his ass. i dont think moveing up will help good luck.
 
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