Bankroll management

I just recently returned to online poker forums after a couple of years since I've read them.

It's interesting how much bankroll management is duscussed lately. I have to wonder why peeople put so much stock in this topic when they play the game as a hobby.

I've been playing professionally for almost a year now, and when you play to pay your bills, bankroll management can be your biggest concern. But when your biggest game is a $10 online rig-n-go, what does bankroll management even mean? I read a lot of people say you should play with x% of your bankroll in a cash game, or you should be able to afford 20 losses at sit-n-go play, but if you are playing with $100, are you really busted for good when you lose a few times?

Bankroll management is more of a concept for people who have budgeted a certain amount for poker that is as much as they can afford to play with for a long period of time, such that if they lose that entire amount they will not be able to play poker for many months. It's kind of like people who start a business and risk a lot to make that business work...and if the business fails, they will be broke, but they don't risk so much that they will lose their house. If you have a "bankroll", that;s like your start up money for a business...you can't afford to lose it or else the business is gone. If you have invested a certain amount into poker that you can afford to lose adn you would just invest another lump, then you don't really have a bankroll that needs managing.

It would be like if you started a hobby that ended up costing you money...would you have to stop painting if you couldn't sell enough paintings to cover the cost of your supplies? My wife paints and she's never sold a single painting. I don't walk in when she's painting and tell her she has to shut it down becuase she's not covering the cost of paint and canvases.

Most people play poker as a hobby. They deposit $50 online and then they play $5 sit and go tourneys. Then it seems like they over focus on things that don't really matter, like bankroll management.

Yes, technically, your Jokerstars bankroll is whatever is in your Jokerstars account at the moment, but it's not like you can;t just deposit again.

For people with a true bankroll, if they lose it, they're done. No more poker. They have to take out a second mortgage or borrow money from someone to keep playing....and both of those are mortal sins that no poker player should commit. Which is why you manage your bankroll to avoid them.

Any thoughts on why people focus so much on this topic when they are playing with small amounts?

ask chrish ferguson he proved you can take nothing and turn it into 10,ooo

ummmmmm BRM matters a lot no matter what stakes you play and wether your doing it as a profession or hobby. If someone is doing it a s a hobby it is critical not to lose your money fast, usually they cannot afford to deposit a lot. Or if someone is starting from scratch(free rolls/playmoney) it also is critical in not having to grind extremly hard to get back.

Alos, even if someone was playing it as a hobby and could deposit again anytime, don't you think the goal is still to make money, and there for, to do this, like many professionals say(we should trust them they make more money than us lol) play brm to handle the swings especially in NL?

I don't understand why your saying it doesn't matter to the low stake hobby players........because it does!

You're right, it only really matters if you won't redeposit. It can be good practice as you move up though. You have to prove to yourself you're a winning player, not just think you are because of a good run. Some people haven't deposited or are not willing to redeposit.

KingCurtis said:

ummmmmm BRM matters a lot no matter what stakes you play and wether your doing it as a profession or hobby. If someone is doing it a s a hobby it is critical not to lose your money fast, usually they cannot afford to deposit a lot. Or if someone is starting from scratch(free rolls/playmoney) it also is critical in not having to grind extremly hard to get back.

I don't understand why your saying it doesn't matter to the low stake hobby players........because it does!

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Perhaps I was too extreme. I'm not saying that a player that deposits $50 should go ahead and play $25 NL holdem cash games and $10 sit and goes. If he does, he should be ready to reach in his pocket very soon.

I'm wondering why the concept is in the front of everyone's mind on these forums and why it's given as much importance as the fundamentals of proper play. People seem to mention it in the same line, like when they say "as long as I'm not making any mistakes, playing with proper hand selection, and managing my bankroll, I'll make money in the long run."

In reality, it seems to me that hobby players should be focusing on avoiding mistakes, which abound at lower levels, than they should be focusing on how many buy ins they have left in their "bankrolls."

If you are just learning to play, and you are making fundamental mistakes, like raising KJ UTG in long handed cash games, it doesn;t matter if you are playing with 1/2 of 1% of your bankroll in that particular game...you are still going to lose money in the long run. It will just take you longer to lose it.

Bankroll management isn;t going to make you money or lose you money in poker. Your concern should be to protect yourself from the inevitable swings caused by variance.

Hope that cleared up what I'm getting at.

On A Pair Draw said:

In reality, it seems to me that hobby players should be focusing on avoiding mistakes, which abound at lower levels, than they should be focusing on how many buy ins they have left in their "bankrolls."

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This is a good point, but at the same time as learning how to not mistakes why not learn BRM too, I mean you can go along not making mistakes but luck still plays a factor in variance, meaning that no matter how good you are you can still hit a downswing, therefor needing good BRM to handle it............

I agree and disagree w/ you. I understand what you're saying, but I think anytime a player can focus on discipline (whether it's not raising KJo utg, or not playing over BR), it will only improve long-term game.

When I had a $500 BR, I was very focused on being smart with it... even though I could replenish if I went broke. There are players who have $50 BRs, but should still learn the discipline involved in not having to redeposit. Now that my BR is over $50,000, should I protect it any less than I did when it was $500, $100, or $50? NO!

When I'm playing a hand, I shouldn't think about how this affects my BR, no matter what the size, but learning how to "manage" every part of our game should absolutely be high on our priority list.

Dayne G. said:

I agree and disagree w/ you. I understand what you're saying, but I think anytime a player can focus on discipline (whether it's not raising KJo utg, or not playing over BR), it will only improve long-term game.

When I had a $500 BR, I was very focused on being smart with it... even though I could replenish if I went broke. There are players who have $50 BRs, but should still learn the discipline involved in not having to redeposit. Now that my BR is over $50,000, should I protect it any less than I did when it was $500, $100, or $50? NO!

When I'm playing a hand, I shouldn't think about how this affects my BR, no matter what the size, but learning how to "manage" every part of our game should absolutely be high on our priority list.

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Good point about discipline. BRM is like long term discipline, where hand selection or pot odds calculation is about short term discipline. I suppose long term is important to learn from the start along with short term.

This thread is a level, right?

Jagsti said:

This thread is a level, right?

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no I dont think so, and I agree with OP. Just because you only have $40 in a pokersite doesn't mean you can't play $10 SnGs and have to play $2 ones (even though long term you can beat the $10 ones). If you blow the $40, then just redeposit with outside money. I think a lot of people on this site are playing long term at too low a level (and therefore winning a fraction of what they could be winning), because they are unwilling to make a proper deposit.

You may agree with it Rob, but it doesn't make it right! Yes if you just wanna play poker with your $50 and play $10 sng's great. But your basically hoping that you go on a heater to actually make any money. Then you redeposit and do the same thing, rinse and repeat. So really your not giving yourself or your roll a chance. I'm not ramming good BRM down peoples throats, because at the end of the day, it's that person's choice. But how many times have you seen threads started on here or any other poker forum stating 'I lost my $30 roll, poker's rigged' blah blah blah.

I did this for a couple of years, and made at least ten or more smallish deposits, playing games out of my roll. Only once did I manage to get it up to a decent level, but continued to play out of my roll. The only time I have managed to sustain a decent roll is by practising BRM.

BTW, just re-read my post above. I hope my tone doesn't come across as aggro , it's not meant to be. I'm a nice guy really .

Jagsti said:

You may agree with it Rob, but it doesn't make it right!

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If I agree with it, it IS right. FACT!

I just believe that when people talk about bankroll management they should look outside of what they have on a particular pokersite, and include all the money that they could happily assign to their game. There is no point someone taking the Chris Ferguson route grinding $2 into $10 over a couple of months, when they've got $100's of dollars sitting in an account which they could have used instead. I see a number of people on site who are playing at micro levels where they aren't even making back the cost of the electricity that powers their PCs even when they are winning at a good ROI.

If you are a decent winning player then you should be playing at levels that enable you to make enough winnings per hour / week / month to make playing worthwhile. this is more important in my opinion than strict bankroll management - i'm not talking about people playing at your levels (neither is OP), where you are making adequate returns for the work you put in, and where bankroll management is key to maintaining those returns. I look to make an average profit of $10 an hour, that's only £5 an hour, barely minimum wage and a lot less than i get from my real job, and I personally don't see that there's any point in working adults playing for less than that if they are any way serious about poker.

Jagsti said:

BTW, just re-read my post above. I hope my tone doesn't come across as aggro , it's not meant to be. I'm a nice guy really .

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You made a great point and your tone was fine.

The main purpose you should practice correct BRM at all times it to build good habits. If you don't start immediately, at what point does it become (for want of a better word) "correct" to start using proper BRM?

dsvw56 said:

If you don't start immediately, at what point does it become (for want of a better word) "correct" to start using proper BRM?

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I don't know where the point is, but the important thing i was trying to get across was that there IS a point. Bankroll management is often talked about, but Time management isn't. You have to make the time spent studying and playing poker worthwhile by maintaining an adequate return, and if this means dipping into outside funds to do so, then I think you should, rather than drop down to micro levels.

Playing with my BR from my first deposit, playing mostly 1.20 sngs some rebuys and some cards chat games I got my 20 dollars to 120 then I played a few 5 dollar games and a few rebuys and lost alot on a massive 1 dollar sng downswing. Deposit was gone and looking back now I know I was on tilt and playing way too loose.

So I put 10 dollars in when pokerstars started the 3.30 sngs and its now at just over 80, it was 100 but I tried a multitable when the fpps x2 started and now im bouncing between 80 and 100 lol. Although I feel more confident playing these then the 1 dollar ones.

Is this horrible BRM or acceptable risk? I suppose its acceptable to me because I deposit 10 dollars at a time. Although if I ever get it together and push on to make more money I know for sure that I would use better BRM to play the 5 dollar sngs.

robwhufc said:

I don't know where the point is, but the important thing i was trying to get across was that there IS a point. Bankroll management is often talked about, but Time management isn't. You have to make the time spent studying and playing poker worthwhile by maintaining an adequate return, and if this means dipping into outside funds to do so, then I think you should, rather than drop down to micro levels.

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A) If you have outside funds to dip in to, those are considered part of your bankroll. Thus, people that don't take this in to account are probably playing well below their bankroll and may be inhibiting their own growth.

B) Your bankroll should not be the only determining factor in what stakes you play. There are many other factors that should be considered, such as skill set, overall hourly rate, and mental capabilities of dealing with the stakes involved. I myself am well rolled for playing NL100, yet I spend all my time playing NL25. First, because my hourly rate at NL25 is higher than what it is at NL50. My WR at NL25 is more than twice than what it is at NL50 and I can comfortably play more tables. Second, I'm way more comfortable playing NL25 and can handle the swings much better and therefore play my A game much more often. Third, since I can play more tables at NL25, I'm seeing more hands per hour, and thus gaining a greater database to learn from.

To me it doesn't matter. Bankroll management is extremely important. Apply this to anything in life.

We've got rockstars out there who didn't use bankroll management and they went bankrupt.

Bottom line, most of us are here because we love poker. Fact is, probably none of us will go pro. Thats ok. As long as we can still play the next day without it coming out of our pockets.

Some of us have 50,000 - 100,000$ bankrolls. Great. How many years did it take to get there and should even 5% of that be blown in 1 game? No way. Not in my opinion. My goal is to have poker as a supplemental income. Thats not working out at all right now, but thats ok as long as tomorrow I can still play in a 1$ SnG. I still carry 2 jobs to make sure that I have extra money outside of poker. I do have money to deposit if I went broke, but why? Seriously, why? Poker isn't my life. I love going to movies, concerts, and all that. What do I do if my spending money goes back into online poker?

Bankroll management is more than poker. Thats life.

A few people have said it but here's my opinion.

1. Your BR is not what is online, it's what you are willing to lose

2. With the definition of BR as #1, you should always practice good BRM. Therefore if you've got a job and you're getting a $500 paycheck every other week and deposit $50 onto a poker site, your bankroll is really bigger than $50, because you have more funds to draw from. But if you go to $200nl that would be kinda high since I doubt anyone would be willing to lose 16 weeks of pay.

I agree with everybody here.

I'll echo the statement that it's better to learn BRM before you need it. I'd rather get wiped ignoring BRM at the micro tables where I can just make another deposit, than see 2 years of work destroyed in a single week moving up levels too fast.

what

I think bankroll management is a great way for the beginner or anyone who needs some help setting goals,if you already know your goals great,most dont have a clue about what they will do with a win,or with a loss.So it is a great way to plan on what you will do.I personally dont plan on spending my out-of pocket money,so i feel i earn the right of passage to play.If i dont win freeroll money,i prolly aint good enough to be playing to start with.I dont take either side,bankrolling is great if you want to see where your you really stand with wins/losses.Also it can save you from losing more than you planned on.Set aside how much you are willing to lose when you sit down,should be a goal everyone uses.

I agree with you completley. I know guys who worry about their bankroll more than they worry about the tables. The only people that should be super concerned with their bank is the guys who play professionally.

Bankroll mangement is if anything more important to the hobbyist than it is to a professional. THats if they want to learn to play the way it should be played. Professionals can rely on their talent. Sadly the rest of us rely on what we can afford to take part in. They afford $1 million games because they have the skills that win them money. Most of us will never see a million dollar tournament unless we take a tourist package to Vegas

When I started playing poker I deposited $200 one day, the next it had gone, and all I learnt was the harsh reality that its easier to lose at poker than it is to win... But hey. it was fun and a hobby so who cared.. Well actually my bank manager cared a little more than I did... He didnt take kindly to my explanation that I was blowing a hole ( the size of the ozone layer ) in my bank account

After losing what can only be described as a considerable amount of money, I found this site and read up on bankroll management. Instead of playing bigger tournaments hoping for the big money returns, I disciplined myself to forget the potential financial rewards of winning, and focus on making sure I went deep into tournaments. Focusing on the most important aspect of the game which isnt to make money... ( unbelievable, but true I am afraid). The aim of the game is to win.... What you get in return for that isnt important.

I then set myself a target, and deposited $10 on my account. I played minute stakes and because I got more games for my money I played more, and playing more gives you experience. I learnt more playing 10 x 10c games than I ever would playing 2 x $5 games.

Because I was gaining in experience and gaining knowledge I found I was gonig deeper into tournaments, and lo and behold my account started to rise. Instead of regular deposits via my credit card, I was depositing the winnings I had made. OK they were small amounts but that wasnt the point. I was actually winning for the first time.

As I won more, I built up my bankroll and that allowed me to take part in higher stakes ( up to 20c... Arent I rebellious ). Again more experience, more knowledge.

I am now playing $2 tournaments and I hope in time to go up to $5 once I've got the money to do it. But when I do it will be because I have earnt and won the money to take part. I wont be paying for it out of my pocket...

Thats my tuppence worth anyhow...

I am ready to be lambasted by others....

The most important aspect of the game is NOT "winning."

It's about making, and committing to decision (A) because of reason (B), accepting all outcomes!

PERIOD!!!!

[The more comfortable you are w/ your current BR, the better decisions you'll make, resulting in better outcomes].