At showdown who can read the hands?

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Dirtymac

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At showdown, all action complete, two players check on the river. The first player shows a straight. The second player lifts his hand up in the air so that three other players at the table can see it but not the entire table. The second player looks at the his hand for a few seconds and acts like he might fold. A third player at the table (but not in the hand) tells the second player that he has a flush.

Is the third player who read the second players hand at showdown violating a rule and what is the penalty? It's not properly tabled but not folded and there is no action left and the cards speak for themselves.




Robert's Rules of poker says

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.


and

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


So this implies that if the second player had made a bet and the first player called it then the third player would have the right to see the hand (even though the second player was showing anyways) and according to paragraph 3 would have an ethical obligation to read the hand so the pot was given to the winning hand.

I know that some card rooms allow any player to ask to see any hand at showdown whether it was called or not.

I guess it also boils down to the definition of tabling a hand.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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The only reason id even waste my time caring if im not in the hand os.

1. A good player getting the chips wrongfully or getting some adv?
2. Bad player wins who cares we will get the chips off him and everyone else fustrated and confused with the situation

3. Good habbit for ppl not knowing what to do is just show ur hand at showdown incase u miss the flush

4. Report floor manager at casino
 
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Dirtymac

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I am trying to find out what the correct ruling should be. What is the penalty, if any?



The only reason id even waste my time caring if im not in the hand os.

1. A good player getting the chips wrongfully or getting some adv?
2. Bad player wins who cares we will get the chips off him and everyone else fustrated and confused with the situation

3. Good habbit for ppl not knowing what to do is just show ur hand at showdown incase u miss the flush

4. Report floor manager at casino
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Once you've tabled your hand then the "Cards Speak" rule applies and the flush wins whether the player with the hand noticed or not. But that's not the case here. There's also a "One player to a hand rule" in most (all?) casinos. IMO, once you show your hand to another player at the table your hand should be ruled dead and it shouldn't be dependent upon whether you received any help or not. Information can be conveyed in many ways short of verbal communications. A look, a snicker, a scoff can all provide information that would violate the one player to a hand rule and the easiest way to enforce this is to not allow the showing of any hand still in play.
 
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ph_il

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There is a one player per hand rule at all the casinos I've been to. In the OP example, even though some players have seen player 2's hand, they are not allowed to comment on the hand until player 2 is completely finished with hand-they muck or show. Looking like they're going to fold isn't the same thing as folding. It would also be a problem if player 3 and player 2 are friends, which would be collusion.

If player 2 is thinking about mucking and does muck, player 1 is not wrongfully rewarded the pot just because player 2 misread their hand. If player 2 shows his hand and player 1 is rewarded the pot, then they're being wrongfully rewarded. This is something anyone at the table can comment on because all hands have ended and it's clear that player 2 has a better hand. The same thing goes if player 2 announces his hand wrong. Player 2 bets, player 1 calls and shows the straight. Player 2 shows his hand and says "I only have 2 pair." The hands are done and anyone at the table can point out player 2's error, which is allowed. Mis-announcing your hand doesn't mean you lose the hand, the dealer will still send the money to the best 5 cards.

If I was player 3, the only way I would actually say mention something in the example is if I notice that player 2 has been folding better hands to player 1 on multiple occasions. If it was i a tournament, I might think it might be chip dumping. I'd definitely let the dealer know.
 
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