can anyone take a a look at this hand please

I hold J9 Suited Spades 6 seater cash table, Open Raise for 3x $1.50 from MP,
Re-raised by the button who is pretty solid but Is pretty aggressive likely to freebet alot of hands from position,

I make the call (OOP) for 3.50 I dont want to 4bet and be stuck with a hard decision post flop if called on a wet board or if im 5bet as I wont be calling with jack high.

Flop comes Kd Jd 7s - pot is $7.25 I raise $3.50 and he flat calls,
The turn is kd Jd 10s 4s - pot now 14.25 , I bet $4.75 for 2 reasons , I dont to inflate the pot and I feel from what I know of this player He's going to re-raise my weak looking $4.75 second barrel with any overpair, AK, KQs.

He flat calls me for $4.75 and the river comes a 4hearts
Given he has'nt re-raised me for value on the turn I feel he is either being cautious has, 3bet me with ace high, or holds a busted flush.

I dont wanna check the river and be faced with a big raise as I cant call with j9 I feel like he wasn't confident and cautious in this hand and the river is unlikely to help him basically a brick, so I bet $11.00 on the river -
and in this case he folds.

Was I wrong to play out the hand in this way?
I just felt laggy player isn't going to want me seeing the a cheap card if he has a strong hand.

how many starting chips do u both have?
think that 11 bucks river bet is ...more likely kind of bluff ....but the good result is button actually folds here.

was $50 max buy in 50NL
I had around $70
Yeah Definately not super confident with J9 but I felt im getting a fold quite often in that spot

I think it comes down to if its a profitable play long term or to big a risk
what percentage would the semi bluff need to be effective to be profitable
anyone know ?

Your flop, and turn is off. Was it the 10 or the 7 on the flop?

cotta777 said:

I hold J9 Suited Spades 6 seater cash table, Open Raise for 3x $1.50 from MP,
Re-raised by the button who is pretty solid but Is pretty aggressive likely to freebet alot of hands from position,

So which one is it? is he solid or is he aggressive? or do you mean tight aggressive?

If a solid player 3 bets you ,and especially from the button, you definitely want to be folding in the first place.Secondly i dont like raising with J9 unless i know button is going to fold or im playing against aknown fish that will likely be OOP. so fold pre, or fold to 3bet.

I make the call (OOP) for 3.50 I dont want to 4bet (with what kind of read or hand????) are you gonna 4 bet here? and be stuck with a hard decision post flop if called on a wet board or if im 5bet as I wont be calling with jack high.

Flop comes Kd Jd 7s - pot is $7.25 I raise $3.50 and he flat calls,

another huge mistake here. why are you donking in after flatting a 3 bet.? are you trying to make it super obvious that you dont have anything? You do realise that you are going to be floated alot (even with air) by good players that are in position and also called by anything better than you.(and alot of the times on a board like this esp with a 3bet villain will have at least a K in his range.

The turn is kd Jd 10s 4s - pot now 14.25 , I bet $4.75 for 2 reasons , I dont to inflate the pot and I feel from what I know of this player He's going to re-raise my weak looking $4.75 second barrel with any overpair, AK, KQs.

So by betting you dont inflate the pot here? When he reraises your weak looking 4.75$ here are you happy? esp when you say you know he is doing this with a better hand? your not making sense here.???????
He flat calls me for $4.75 and the river comes a 4hearts
Given he has'nt re-raised me for value on the turn I feel he is either being cautious has, 3bet me with ace high, or holds a busted flush.

I dont wanna check the river and be faced with a big raise as I cant call with j9 I feel like he wasn't confident and cautious in this hand and the river is unlikely to help him basically a brick, so I bet $11.00 on the river -
and in this case he folds.

I hate the way you have played the hand(with all due respect). By donking your only getting called by better hands. Your not getting any information on villains strength and your probably digging your own hole and burning money.

Was I wrong to play out the hand in this way? Yes very wrong.

I just felt laggy player isn't going to want me seeing the a cheap card if he has a strong hand.

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Again , you said hes solid and now you say hes laggy. Which is it?

In conclusion, fold pre or fold when he 3 bets . Since you decide to flat,u must check call flop and then either check fold turn or maybe checkraise just because you picked up some more equity with the 4th nut flush draw and by doing so you can then see if villain actually has a hand(since you say you dont believe him)...But when playing OOP a hand like this, you have put yourself in this very wierd situation where you have to play the guessing game and you are donking each street totally blindly without having a clue as to what you are trying to accomplish.


just my 2 cents. lol.

Vinyl,
sorry it was a 10 I haven't got hand history on it just recalling a situation for insight.
solid may be the wrong word to use I meant his game was solid like he had
good awareness as to where he could exploit and was a reg.

Anyway as I stated OOP I know it is be regarded as donking but this is termology used for basic optimal strategy
If I have reason to believe I can dictate a players game by making certain size raises when first to act I will play that strategy,
you can play optimal and make your 2 pennies worth, but sometimes the big pots and those extra plays are the difference beetween breaking even and a winning session.
with the right player you could account for 2 rightly timed semi bluffs per table equating to almost a buy in of profit per table.

If I wasn't confident with my range and post flop reads It would most definately be a losing play but my arguement is if I know what the other players are doing, and Im able to realise they have picked up on a feel bet strategy then would be the time to adjust for a period

cotta777 said:

Vinyl,
sorry it was a 10 I haven't got hand history on it just recalling a situation for insight.
solid may be the wrong word to use I meant his game was solid like he had
good awareness as to where he could exploit and was a reg.

Anyway as I stated OOP I know it is be regarded as donking but this is termology used for basic optimal strategy
If I have reason to believe I can dictate a players game by making certain size raises when first to act I will play that strategy,
you can play optimal and make your 2 pennies worth, but sometimes the big pots and those extra plays are the difference beetween breaking even and a winning session.
with the right player you could account for 2 rightly timed semi bluffs per table equating to almost a buy in of profit per table.

If I wasn't confident with my range and post flop reads It would most definately be a losing play but my arguement is if I know what the other players are doing, and Im able to realise they have picked up on a feel bet strategy then would be the time to adjust for a period

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Hey man. i hear you brother. If thats the read you made on the hand and on the player, then good read and good play, especially if you won the hand and the pot. I dont want to come off as rude or anything,im just giving you my opinion as why i thought you didnt play the hand the best way possible. In general you didnt take a very good line in my opinion and i tried to give you some examples about why i didnt like the line. You said someone take alook at this hand so i did.

I dont know if its the best opinion ,but its the only one i got. In general plays like that are going to be losing you more money than they will be making you.

Good luck .

cotta777 said:

was $50 max buy in 50NL
I had around $70
Yeah Definately not super confident with J9 but I felt im getting a fold quite often in that spot

I think it comes down to if its a profitable play long term or to big a risk
what percentage would the semi bluff need to be effective to be profitable
anyone know ?

Click to expand...

i agree with the river bet....since u are out of postion ,and J pair with 9 kicker is definitely no showdown strength here! -- nearly zero equity to showdown.

if u could let some better pair like AJ or small flush to fold, think that is the best results to put 11 bucks into the pot....

J9s call preflop 3bet, think that is very hard to play, does not mean that u cannot make profit to call button 3bet with J9s, but just want to say very hard. and need skills. --- at least 70% of the skills like PHIL IVEY play anytwo....

XXPXXP said:

i agree with the river bet....since u are out of postion ,and J pair with 9 kicker is definitely no showdown strength here! -- nearly zero equity to showdown.

if u could let some better pair like AJ or small flush to fold, think that is the best results to put 11 bucks into the pot....

J9s call preflop 3bet, think that is very hard to play, does not mean that u cannot make profit to call button 3bet with J9s, but just want to say very hard. and need skills. --- at least 70% of the skills like PHIL IVEY play anytwo....

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So you agree with turning a bluffcatcher into a bluff for no reason and betting only to fold out worse hands( therefor lose value) and get called only by hands that have us beat, am i correct?

good luck out there.your going to need it.

vinylspiros said:

So you agree with turning a bluffcatcher into a bluff for no reason and betting only to fold out worse hands( therefor lose value) and get called only by hands that have us beat, am i correct?

good luck out there.your going to need it.

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Lollll

when you put it like that it does sound verryy bad. lol

I just think there is also a profitable system out there alternitive to playing the text book optimal range

Its granted alot harder to do, but I've invested alot of time into bringing fear and fold equity into my image almost obsessed with mastering the art of aggression and I will never stop working towards improvement,

ofcourse It then gives a choice of playing optimal profitable moves in the basic sense based on expected range -

but to be able to take it to the next level and really spot tiny leaks and learn to be able to turn them into a profitable situation, and play a contrast of both elements,
can only be a benifit

cotta777 said:

Lollll

when you put it like that it does sound verryy bad. lol

I just think there is also a profitable system out there alternitive to playing the text book optimal range

Its granted alot harder to do, but I've invested alot of time into bringing fear and fold equity into my image almost obsessed with mastering the art of aggression and I will never stop working towards improvement,

ofcourse It then gives a choice of playing optimal profitable moves in the basic sense based on expected range -

but to be able to take it to the next level and really spot tiny leaks and learn to be able to turn them into a profitable situation, and play a contrast of both elements,
can only be a benifit

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^^^^^^ cotta man. Im sure that you are exactly like i used to be. I loved using fear and aggression to win pots and i did it many many times. But one day some people told me that what im doing is wrong and explained it to me analytically the way i tried to explain it to you above. It's just common sense.


When you want to make someone fold that means you are scarred that they will call and show up with the best hand when what you should try to be focusing on is trying to get involved in hands when you actually DO have the best hand and try to extract the most value out of it by making bets that worst hands will be calling.


Think about it. When you raise , you are raising either to fold out better hands( bluffing) or to be called by worse(value betting).

If it is not clear in your mind what the intention of your raise is,then you are not playing correctly.

And in this particluar example,it is clear that you do not exactly know why you are betting.( since by donking in,betting out of turn when he 3 bets pre and you flat, you get no info esp when you do it on all 3 streets)

lol. good luck man. just another 2 cents. u owe me like 6 cents so far.

vinylspiros said:

So you agree with turning a bluffcatcher into a bluff for no reason and betting only to fold out worse hands( therefor lose value) and get called only by hands that have us beat, am i correct?

good luck out there.your going to need it.

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yes, in my opinion, I don't think in NL50
there will be any chance, button....bluff any kinds of hands ....more than value bet his range.

and I expect button to check show the hands get J9s beaten.

J pair without any made flush has tiny showdown strength and bluff catch strength here.

so here think that bluff to let him fold is the best....
may be there are better play , just see what other CCer says.

I'l take it on board for sure and vinyl I have no doubt your experienced and doing well,

one question I do have though.

If I just played my game extracting value when I make strong hands, and not risking anything when Im not certain...
over a long stretch of time - given I know the correct range and positional play, could make a profit?

so Im right in thinking genurally theirs no need to be overly aggressive - and still make a healthy profit

In my eyes grinding you are able to make small steps and consistant profits, and this can be taught or practiced until successful.
where as becoming something more advanced than a standard grinder, involves the kind of skill either people dont feel comfortable learning or have trouble learning.?

As played i think betting small on river to induce or c/c given your reads. I agree that you're not folding out many hands that beat you.

cotta777 said:

I'l take it on board for sure and vinyl I have no doubt your experienced and doing well,

one question I do have though.

If I just played my game extracting value when I make strong hands, and not risking anything when Im not certain...
over a long stretch of time - given I know the correct range and positional play, could make a profit?

so Im right in thinking genurally theirs no need to be overly aggressive - and still make a healthy profit

In my eyes grinding you are able to make small steps and consistant profits, and this can be taught or practiced until successful.
where as becoming something more advanced than a standard grinder, involves the kind of skill either people dont feel comfortable learning or have trouble learning.?

Click to expand...

In general, yes there are certain spot where we can be stealing .For example if villain fails to make continuation bet and we have alot of outs we can take a stab at the pot. Also we can steal blinds as often as possible and then take it down with c betting the right flops against the right villains.. Or by check calling we can sometimes pot bet the river when the flush comes out adn stuff like that(assuming we think we can get a fold if we dont have a hand)


But in general playing hands out of position and donking like you are doing here, will be losing you more money than they will be making you. So yes ,sometimes ABC poker is very boring(i know from personal experience) but its good to try and put in as much volume as possible trying to play as ABC as it gets in order to make a longterm profit than to be making crazy bluffy and fancy plays and keep wondering to yourself why you are still breakeven or a losing player.

vinylspiros said:

In general, yes there are certain spot where we can be stealing .For example if villain fails to make continuation bet and we have alot of outs we can take a stab at the pot. Also we can steal blinds as often as possible and then take it down with c betting the right flops against the right villains.. Or by check calling we can sometimes pot bet the river when the flush comes out adn stuff like that(assuming we think we can get a fold if we dont have a hand)


But in general playing hands out of position and donking like you are doing here, will be losing you more money than they will be making you. So yes ,sometimes ABC poker is very boring(i know from personal experience) but its good to try and put in as much volume as possible trying to play as ABC as it gets in order to make a longterm profit than to be making crazy bluffy and fancy plays and keep wondering to yourself why you are still breakeven or a losing player.

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less mistakes equals less swings which = less tilt,
It's really those moments when i've exceeded my bankroll limitations that its ended bad.
Im pretty sure without the bad roll management I'm a winning player with ease.
self control, focus and tolorence to the boring grind are the 3 things im going to focus on, may even start some kind of meditation class or yoga