Am I a lemon or the greatest poker player alive?

"You're a lemon. Like a bad car. There is something... there is something inherently defective in you, and you, and you, and me, and all of us. We're all lemons. We look like everyone else, but what makes us different is our defect. See, most gamblers, when they go to gamble, they go to win. When we go to gamble, we go to lose. Subconsciously. Me, I never feel better than when they're raking the chips away; not bringing them in. And everyone here knows what I'm talking about. Hell, even when we win it's just a matter of time before we give it all back. But when we lose, that's another story. When we lose, and I'm talking about the kind of loss that makes your asshole pucker to the size of a decimal point - you know what I mean - You've just recreated the worst possible nightmare this side of malignant cancer, for the twentieth goddamn time; and you're standing there and you suddenly realise, Hey, I'm still... here. I'm still breathing. I'm still alive. Us lemons, we **** shit up all the time on purpose. Because we constantly need to remind ourselves we're alive. Gambling's not your problem. It's this ****ed up need to feel something. To convince yourself you exist. That's the problem. "

Al Pacino, Two for the Money

"In order to take a bad beat, you have to have lured your opponent into risking his money on a situation where he was a big underdog. In other words, you have to have done something smart. When you are playing well virtually all of your beats will be bad ones."

Scott Fischman, Online Ace


Over the course of the last 4 months I have lost over 3500 dollars playing online poker. Now granted, the first thousand was pissed away playing risky poker, stupid poker, inexperienced (online) poker. My problem is, I am not a bad poker player, I win fairly large amounts every time I play live games at the Hard Rock, and I do well at my home games. So why is it that I lose so much and so often online?? Well I will tell you one thing, I take a hell of alot of bad beats, and I mean the worse...having pocket 5's on a Q5Q board and losing to queen 4 thanks to the river, having your pocket aces beat by AK several times, constant set over set's, etc. Now I know people whine about the same thing over and over, but I assure you my purpose here is not to say these sites are rigged, but to ask if it is possible that maybe I am rigged???

Am I a lemon, like Al talks about? Is it possible I am just conditioned to lose? It makes some sense, I am a pretty numb person in general, it takes a lot to really move me, to make me feel any sort of emotion. But this is usually why I clean up at the poker table, is it different online...can complacency and lack of emotion affect your online play differently than live play? Am I just getting bored after a decent session so I start playing too loose, who knows..

Or as Scott puts it, is my constant beat after bad beat, an indication that I am doing something right? If that is the case than I am quite possibly one of the greatest players to ever grace the online felt. And don't tell me that everyone takes as many beats, you just don't remember the good hits like you do the bad ones. Yes I do, oh yes I do...and don't tell me that if you play consistently the variance will level out. I have played over 250 thousand hands on full tilt alone in the last 3 months, yes thats scary but I dont have a job I've been playing 10-14 hours a day, and it has not leveled out...I lose, and I lose some more.

Honestly its not about the money anymore, I need some answers, am I just a lemon, or am I just unlucky...none of you can really answer that for me I geuss, and maybe this is a rant. This was long over due though...

soncheebs said:

Over the course of the last 4 months I have lost over 3500 dollars playing online poker.



Now granted, the first thousand was pissed away playing risky poker, stupid poker, inexperienced (online) poker.

You forked out 1000$ inexperienced and didn't stop ??????? Why ??????

My problem is, I am not a bad poker player, I win fairly large amounts every time I play live games at the Hard Rock, and I do well at my home games. So why is it that I lose so much and so often online??

Because online poker is much harder than live poker.

Well I will tell you one thing, I take a hell of alot of bad beats, (snip). Now I know people whine about the same thing over and over, but I assure you my purpose here is not to say these sites are rigged, but to ask if it is possible that maybe I am rigged???

Yes you are, you play way above any suitable Bankroll limit and try to chase your losses. -> sorry to say but you MUST stop right now doing that.

Am I a lemon, like Al talks about? Is it possible I am just conditioned to lose? It makes some sense, I am a pretty numb person in general, it takes a lot to really move me, to make me feel any sort of emotion. But this is usually why I clean up at the poker table, is it different online...can complacency and lack of emotion affect your online play differently than live play? Am I just getting bored after a decent session so I start playing too loose, who knows..

Boredoom is a major issue playing real money games
Or as Scott puts it, is my constant beat after bad beat, an indication that I am doing something right? If that is the case than I am quite possibly one of the greatest players to ever grace the online felt.

Lmao --- I don't think so.

And don't tell me that everyone takes as many beats, you just don't remember the good hits like you do the bad ones. Yes I do, oh yes I do...and don't tell me that if you play consistently the variance will level out. I have played over 250 thousand hands on full tilt alone in the last 3 months, yes thats scary but I dont have a job I've been playing 10-14 hours a day, and it has not leveled out...I lose, and I lose some more.

I think you should go back about 27 steps and start grinding micro- tables, maybe even quit playing entirely, you have a gambling problem.

Honestly its not about the money anymore, I need some answers, am I just a lemon, or am I just unlucky...none of you can really answer that for me I geuss, and maybe this is a rant. This was long over due though...

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Sorry, didn't want to flame you but your problems are overwhelming.

Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.

If after 250k hands you are loosing, then you are a loosing player. You need to sit down and rethink you game. Take a few days off, take a few weeks off, and just read and study up. If you have PT or HM (if you are playing that many hands and loosing that much money, you should) take the time and go through your session that you have played. Go back through and look at your big loosing hands and go through them. Run some numbers on some of your hands and see where you were on each street. You many not be taking as many bad beats as you think. Go subscribe to one of the poker training sites and go through those videos.

No one person is more (or less) lucky then anyone else. It is just pure statistics and variance. You may have had some bad luck, but so has everyone else. I'm sure you have also given some bad beats in those 250k hands. The biggest piece of advice I can give it take a break and study.

Lemon? Not all of us. 20% of online players are winners. Myself I hate to not win. I think you need to rethink how you play online. In live games you are probably good at reading the other players. That's something you can not do online. Think about it.

grafkarow said:

Sorry, didn't want to flame you but your problems are overwhelming.

Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.

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I'm not offended...I do want to make a few things clear...I stayed at the micro stakes...I moved up on my first deposit and got raped so I never made that mistake again. Obviously I don't propose that I am in fact the greatest player ever, but are you saying you don't agree with Fischman about bad beats? This is the first period of time I have been unemployed since I was 15, and it's because I relocated across the country recently. As far as my gambling problem...I am addicted to gambling, but I wouldn't call it a problem...my first night down here I went to the hardrock and turned 200 dollars into 2600...the next night I won another 1100...I've went back a few other times and managed to stay up or break even every time...so the money I have lost online is all from my live bankroll, which is still at almost a thousand.

While I wasn't really wanting anything other than an oppurtunity to vent out of this, I did expect to get maybe a shred of wisdom from some of you, you instead were an asshole.

soncheebs said:

Honestly its not about the money anymore, I need some answers, am I just a lemon, or am I just unlucky...none of you can really answer that for me I geuss, and maybe this is a rant. This was long over due though...

Click to expand...

Yes you are a lemon.

Online is significantly harder than live and there are tonns of threads about this.

10NL Online roughly equals 100NL live.

So what you need to do is to drop stakes to say 25NL online and start to learn how to play poker properly.

At this point you think that you are an OK poker player.. you are not, you just play, live, against people who are incredibly bad.

However with some study and dedication to online play, you should find that once your online game gets better, you will find that your live game increases exponentially.

A lot of people who play live find this out when they start off in online. So you are not on your own.

Just perceiver!

soncheebs said:

As far as my gambling problem...I am addicted to gambling, but I wouldn't call it a problem....

Click to expand...

You are unemployed and losing money playing poker (your post mentions $3.5K)

Without some kind of trust fund, this is a problem.

Read up on Bankroll managment.

You must learn to drop stakes when your BR size dictates. Otherwise you will go bust.

I think you said it best, you are good at Live games and online you are floundering.
Maybe you need to stick to the Live games.

Try using the online BR as a means to practice your game when you can't get to the casino. Stay in the micro stakes.
On FT there is a video and lesson from Chris Ferguson concerning BR management, study this. It has helped me and several of my friends immensely.

And as someone else said, go back over your online hand history and try to figure out where you are going wrong.
We all have leaks in our game and we all go on losing streaks, some short, some very long.

A good poker player will sit down look at his/her sessions and make an honest assessment of what is going on. Then make the proper adjustments.
Position? LAG? Too many bluffs? You get the idea.

soncheebs said:

I'm not offended...I do want to make a few things clear...I stayed at the micro stakes...I moved up on my first deposit and got raped so I never made that mistake again. Obviously I don't propose that I am in fact the greatest player ever, but are you saying you don't agree with Fischman about bad beats? This is the first period of time I have been unemployed since I was 15, and it's because I relocated across the country recently. As far as my gambling problem...I am addicted to gambling, but I wouldn't call it a problem...my first night down here I went to the hardrock and turned 200 dollars into 2600...the next night I won another 1100...I've went back a few other times and managed to stay up or break even every time...so the money I have lost online is all from my live bankroll, which is still at almost a thousand.

While I wasn't really wanting anything other than an oppurtunity to vent out of this, I did expect to get maybe a shred of wisdom from some of you, you instead were an asshole.

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1: That you lost your money from your live account wasn't mentioned in your op.
2: You managed to lose 3500$ in a 3 month period and didn't stop.
3: You say you're not offended and yet you are.
4: You call me an asshole.

Well if you think so maybe I am and will rather try and help others to learn from their mistakes, with your rude attitude you wont be here long anyway I bet.

I am a strawberry because I like daquiris.

Oh were to start?

Basically, it is impossible to lose at the micros if you play solid tight poker.

The fact that you lost several thousand over a quarter million hands at the micro limits speaks for itself.

It may hurt to hear it, but you are probably not as good at poker as you think you are.

Stu_Ungar said:

Yes you are a lemon.

Online is significantly harder than live and there are tonns of threads about this.

10NL Online roughly equals 100NL live.

So what you need to do is to drop stakes to say 25NL online and start to learn how to play poker properly.

At this point you think that you are an OK poker player.. you are not, you just play, live, against people who are incredibly bad.

However with some study and dedication to online play, you should find that once your online game gets better, you will find that your live game increases exponentially.

A lot of people who play live find this out when they start off in online. So you are not on your own.

Just perceiver!

Click to expand...

First, I want to say I appreciate you giving me feedbaq in a respectable fashion, unlike somebody's response, you make some good points, and I think I do have alot of studying to do. With that said, do you think investing in Pokertracker would be a good idea...I downloaded the trial but I didn't understand the software, which I thought was odd because it seems everybody uses it pretty easily.

soncheebs said:

First, I want to say I appreciate you giving me feedbaq in a respectable fashion, unlike somebody's response, you make some good points, and I think I do have alot of studying to do. With that said, do you think investing in Pokertracker would be a good idea...I downloaded the trial but I didn't understand the software, which I thought was odd because it seems everybody uses it pretty easily.

Click to expand...

HUD software is a good starting point.

I use PT3 but HEM is probably considered better.

With tracking software you have to firstly make sure your pokersite is saving the hand history on your HD. Its in the pokersites settings.

Secondly point the tracking software at the folder where the HH is being saved.

This is a really good site to use and if you get involved, ask questions and USE THE HAND ANALYSIS SECTION, then your play will improve (hopefully reasonably quickly).

Best of luck

grafkarow said:

1: That you lost your money from your live account wasn't mentioned in your op.
2: You managed to lose 3500$ in a 3 month period and didn't stop.
3: You say you're not offended and yet you are.
4: You call me an asshole.

Well if you think so maybe I am and will rather try and help others to learn from their mistakes, with your rude attitude you wont be here long anyway I bet.

Click to expand...

Being offended is unwarranted when dealing with someone's oppinion which I firmly believe everyone has the right to express, so I remain, as I said not offended by your remarks, but there lies the issue. You offered me remarks, snide ones at that, instead of solutions, or positive criticism at the least. I do apologize for calling you an ass hole, and I hope you are wrong about me not being here for long, because I love this community and very much want to someday make a substantial contribution to it. Until I have the knowledge to do so, however, I suppose I need to get back to the drawing board, study some more, and figure out why I can't win for the life of me, online.

soncheebs said:

Being offended is unwarranted when dealing with someone's oppinion which I firmly believe everyone has the right to express, so I remain, as I said not offended by your remarks, but there lies the issue. You offered me remarks, snide ones at that, instead of solutions, or positive criticism at the least. I do apologize for calling you an ass hole, and I hope you are wrong about me not being here for long, because I love this community and very much want to someday make a substantial contribution to it. Until I have the knowledge to do so, however, I suppose I need to get back to the drawing board, study some more, and figure out why I can't win for the life of me, online.

Click to expand...

OK apologize accepted, maybe I was too harsh and you got worked up about that - if so I apologize, too.

Now I'll try and be more constructive and tell you exactly what I mean.

Stu, Leo and others mentioned BR management - there are several very good threads in the strategy section for you to read. Read More

3500 $ is a huge amount of money imo.

Maybe you should force yourself not to spend more than 100$ a month.

- It's ok to spend 100$ on your hobby , it could be going to the movies, playing poker or whatever, just set a limit and fix it.

As mentioned before online poker has a higher skilled player ratio than live poker simply because the cards are dealt faster and the better players often multitable thus

learning much faster and seeing many many more hands you could ever be seeing in a live game.

Forget your losses.
Sounds hard but you wont probably win them back as fast as you lost them.
Set smaller goals. Maybe build up a decent BR (like 200$ starting from 50$).

Boredoom: You should "never" play bored - do something else instead.

Boredoom leads you to making weird/fancy plays to lighten up which will ultimately run you into disaster.

Bad beats happen to all of us all the time, proper BR-management will let you survive the variance.

All together it might even be more than 27 steps you need to learn.

I'm trying to improve every day, it comes in small steps and often you don't even recognize it, then one day you find out you're suddenly playing a lot better.

To my last statement - yes I do think you have / or had a gambling problem, as I said before limit your expenses

- and maybe think about a daily scedule since 10-14h is somewhat a lot (can you really concentrate hard that long ?).

Basically this is more lengthy and hopefully more constructive.

Just on a side-note:

If you insult members here you will be gone in a flash, I have seen it before.

grafkarow said:

OK apologize accepted, maybe I was too harsh and you got worked up about that - if so I apologize, too.

Now I'll try and be more constructive and tell you exactly what I mean.

Stu, Leo and others mentioned BR management - there are several very good threads in the strategy section for you to read. Read More

3500 $ is a huge amount of money imo.

Maybe you should force yourself not to spend more than 100$ a month.

- It's ok to spend 100$ on your hobby , it could be going to the movies, playing poker or whatever, just set a limit and fix it.

As mentioned before online poker has a higher skilled player ratio than live poker simply because the cards are dealt faster and the better players often multitable thus

learning much faster and seeing many many more hands you could ever be seeing in a live game.

Forget your losses.
Sounds hard but you wont probably win them back as fast as you lost them.
Set smaller goals. Maybe build up a decent BR (like 200$ starting from 50$).

Boredoom: You should "never" play bored - do something else instead.

Boredoom leads you to making weird/fancy plays to lighten up which will ultimately run you into disaster.

Bad beats happen to all of us all the time, proper BR-management will let you survive the variance.

All together it might even be more than 27 steps you need to learn.

I'm trying to improve every day, it comes in small steps and often you don't even recognize it, then one day you find out you're suddenly playing a lot better.

To my last statement - yes I do think you have / or had a gambling problem, as I said before limit your expenses

- and maybe think about a daily scedule since 10-14h is somewhat a lot (can you really concentrate hard that long ?).

Basically this is more lengthy and hopefully more constructive.

Just on a side-note:

If you insult members here you will be gone in a flash, I have seen it before.

Click to expand...

Im glad you'll have my apology, FYI I have alot of good friends that would die for me, most would say I'm a great person, but I make terrible first impressions, your kinda outspoken maybe you know what I mean.

Anyways to your lengthy post, thank you, theres alot to look at...and I think my biggest problem may be indeed BR management, come to think of it I have chased losses from time to time, I do get bored also. Thank you to yourself and others that have given me their constructive two cents...I have alot to work on...as for now, I'm going to set a reasonable goal of turning my 19.97 rakeback I got today on tilt...into 50 dollars and go from there. Thanks guys, and sorry if I was rude to anyone.