Is this a penalty in live poker room?

PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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My friend was disgusted with this experience. At a casino, he was playing $1/$3 live. As the dealer was dealing and he was in mp2, his first card that was dealt got flipped over by accident and it was an Ace. So obviously, that card is going to get burned and the second card is dealt, which was ANOTHER ACE. Then after everyone's been dealt, they give the third card, which was 7 clubs. My friend got so angry that he just open folded out of turn both of his cards Ace and 7. The table was like "ooohhh man, that sucks." Then the guy who was in a button just open folded pocket 7s out of turn and said "well, u have my outs so tyvm and i'm gonna take a break from this hand.". Then everyone started open folding their cards and said "i might as well fold them too." small blind and big blind decided to just chop the pot and move on. Dealer calls the floorperson and talks to the floorperson regarding this issue. Floorperson decided to give my friend a warning not to do it again. My friend was very angry bcz what he expected was for dealer to just apologize and simply move on and continue dealing next hand. But instead, the dealer acted like b**** and called the floorperson. My friend told the floorperson to give him a penalty and kick him out and that he'll voluntarily just walk out and go to a different casino. He left with his stack, cashed out. Sooner as he was using the restroom, the guy who was at his table also used the restroom and said he's leaving too because he didn't like the dealer and he was hoping that the table breaks and other people were leaving too.

Is my friend supposed to get a penalty for this? He just open folded it out of frustration because he was supposed to get dealt pocket Aces. Does casino not give any room for people's frustration and give people penalties regardless of the mistakes that the casinos make?

My opinion is that mistakes can happen but dealer was just a b**** who don't know how to treat the players properly. I believe she could've just apologized and quietly moved on and deal more hands instead of warning my friend not to do it again. Because after all, she did make the mistake and started this issue.
 
U

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Dealers aren't perfect people. They make mistakes. The fact that this dealer screwed up 3 times is amusing, but that doesn't give your friend the right to be an angry asshole about it. There is nothing wrong with being angry. It's only when you become an ass that this becomes a problem.

Why didn't your friend just call over a floorperson to have them rule on whether or not misdealing of this magnitude would let the hand be null and void? Dealers usually don't declare misdeals without floor approval (which this one should have done but meh)

The main reason they got mad was that your friend gave away his hand in what is deemed an active pot. In poker you aren't allowed to do that because you could affect the actions of other players (see: the guy with 77).

Just out of curiosity, what did your friend have invested in this pot anyway?
 
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dmorris68

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As the dealer was dealing and he was in mp2, his first card that was dealt got flipped over by accident and it was an Ace. So obviously, that card is going to get burned and the second card is dealt, which was ANOTHER ACE.
Was this hold'em? If I'm reading this right, I don't know how he thinks he was due to be dealt AA?

The fact that this dealer screwed up 3 times is amusing,
Where do you get 3 dealer screw ups? I only see the first exposed ace. Which happens from time to time even with the best dealers. Again, unless I'm misreading.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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As the dealer was dealing, first card that my friend was dealt got flipped up, which was an Ace. So that's an exposed card, and dealer keeps dealing out cards. he gets the second card, which is an Ace and after everyone's been dealt, then dealer gives the other card to compensate the first card that got flipped over. He was angry at the hand where he could've been dealt pocket Aces because first card got flipped over and exposed which was an Ace, second card that was dealt was an Ace but was faced down, and then third card that was dealt to replace the first card that got flipped over, was 7. If first card didn't get flipped over, then my friend would've had pocket Aces.

I know it's a mistake and my friend shouldn't have acted like a dick because mistakes happen.

The way they deal the cards were, they deal it normally. Let's say I'm the dealer and I dealt u a first card which got flipped over and exposed, then the next card will be dealt to player left of you instead of giving you the card. In other words, they skip you till the end. So by the time all the players have been dealt to the button, you're one card short, then the dealer deals u the card. They do this so that other players still get dealt the cards they were supposed to get. At least this is how it works at casinos in Southern California.

This was holdem. $1/$3 NLHE.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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Dealers aren't perfect people. They make mistakes. The fact that this dealer screwed up 3 times is amusing, but that doesn't give your friend the right to be an angry asshole about it. There is nothing wrong with being angry. It's only when you become an ass that this becomes a problem.

Why didn't your friend just call over a floorperson to have them rule on whether or not misdealing of this magnitude would let the hand be null and void? Dealers usually don't declare misdeals without floor approval (which this one should have done but meh)

The main reason they got mad was that your friend gave away his hand in what is deemed an active pot. In poker you aren't allowed to do that because you could affect the actions of other players (see: the guy with 77).

Just out of curiosity, what did your friend have invested in this pot anyway?

It was only one Ace that got flipped over. When the card gets dealt and card got flipped over, then they skip my friend on that round of rotation and continue dealing. After they dealt two rotations to deal two hole cards, they obviously skipped my friend who is one card short, then the dealer gives him the second hold card.
First card that got exposed was Ace
Second card that he got dealt was an Ace
Third card that was dealt to replace his first hole card was 7.

So he would've had pocket Aces if dealer didn't make the mistake. So he got frustrated and rolled both of his cards face up out of turn just to show the dealer and the whole table that he would've had pocket Aces.

He didn't have anything invested in a pot because it was a cash game $1/$3 NLHE. So he didn't lose anything but he was still angry because it was his potential hand to make money bcz after all, that's where you have the greatest chance of maximizing the value of your stack.
 
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PoKeRFoRNiA

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Here's the rule that explains better.

Flashed Cards
During a deal, it's common for the dealer to accidently flip one card over, or "flash" enough of its face for another player to see the face value of the card. In such a situation the dealer does the following:
  1. The flashed card is turned faceup in front of the player it was supposed to be dealt to.
  2. The dealer continues dealing as if nothing has gone awry, until all players (minus the one player with a flashed card) have their proper amount of cards.
  3. The dealer then deals the player with the flashed card a new card from the top of the deck and announces to the whole table the value and suit of the card exposed.
  4. This exposed card now becomes the first "burn card," and play continues as it normally would.
  5. There can only be one flashed card per deal. If more than one card is exposed, the deal is considered a misdeal.
  6. Any card that falls off the table due to the dealer's action is considered a flashed card, regardless of how many (if any) players have seen its value.
 
dmorris68

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Okay, now it makes more sense.

I was about to say maybe your friend should be thankful since it seemed his AA would have been cracked by 777, but I guess the 7 would have been burned.

Still only seeing the one mistake by the dealer.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

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Live stuff that happens to me and my friend, makes me miss online poker because with online poker, you never have this kind of problem. No such thing as misdeal in online poker. No such thing as exposed cards, etc.
While my friend still plays in casinos, I've been playing lot of home games lately. I've been reluctant to go to casinos now because home games are lot softer and friendly and best of all, there's no rake in 50NL cash game tables. In casinos, they rake you so much and as if rake isn't enough, they implicitly demand tips on top of it. Online, rake is so small it's 5% or less. Tournament entry fees are 10% or less. live tourneys have such a high rake.
 
JusSumguy

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You can't do anything that would/could effect further action.

The dealer and the floor were right in this case.

This is a serious violation.

-
 
cardriverx

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yeah, the player "should have" gotten pocket AA but you are being results oriented. Could have very well been the card flipped over was a 2 and he was helped by it being flipped over.
 
U

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Okay, now it makes more sense.

I was about to say maybe your friend should be thankful since it seemed his AA would have been cracked by 777, but I guess the 7 would have been burned.

Still only seeing the one mistake by the dealer.

I misread it as 3 cards being flipped over and not one. Not my fault the guy hurts my eyes with how he spaced all that.

My point about how that doesn't give his friend the right to be an ass and fold his hand (and revealing it) still stands.
 
JusSumguy

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You can't do anything that would/could effect further action.

The dealer and the floor were right in this case.

This is a serious violation.

-

My point about how that doesn't give his friend the right to be an ass and fold his hand (and revealing it) still stands.
See above.

Not only did the 77 guy fold because of the reveal, he said out loud why, and thanked him for being an ass.

This is a major violation and would recieve a round out in a tourney and should have cost the friend 10 minutes.

-
 
dmorris68

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I misread it as 3 cards being flipped over and not one. Not my fault the guy hurts my eyes with how he spaced all that.

My point about how that doesn't give his friend the right to be an ass and fold his hand (and revealing it) still stands.

Not arguing about his attitude, I was looking for the 2nd and 3rd error.
 
IntenseHeat

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I can't blame you (your friend) for being angry. I wouldn't even hold the folding out of turn against you (him) too much. But you (him) exposing your (his) cards was kind of putting your (his) toes over the line.

I might not have done all of that, or any of that. But I would have definitely had some sarcastic encouragement for the dealer. After all, everyone there is trying to get paid. Being one of the ones guaranteed a paycheck, I'd think the burden would be upon him to step his game up. And I wouldn't feel the slightest bit bad about telling him so.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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dealer screwed up exactly 1 time, when she exposed the first ace. It happens, no big deal everyone needs to just move along.

then your friend was an ass

then the dealer decided not to let it go and be an ass about it herself

then the floor person made a just ruling, by just informing the players and issuing a warning.

then your friend decided to be an ass again, after getting the kindest possible floor ruling.


there are very specific rules in live poker about when it is a misdeal, and only if 1 of the first 2 cards is exposed is it a misdeal, otherwise after that the exposed card becomes the burn. no room for interpretation here.

however, players are never supposed to fold out of turn, especially OPEN FOLDING out of turn. very bad form....
 
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Jacki Burkhart

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by the way, at wsop they are such sticklers for this that if you accidentally expose your hand with action pending, you get a 1 round penatly...even if it is totally obvious to everyone that it was an accident.

so in this casino, the floor peson was being VERY VERY nice to your friend...

waaaaaahhhh.....he "should" have gotten dealt pocket aces. Big flippin deal. you know how many times a misdeal has killed my monster hands? move on....if you are a winning player you shouldn't be hanging around waiting for monsters anyways. Aces get cracked all the time too, especially in low stakes live cash games...that misdeal might have saved him half his stack...
 
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I've never sat at a poker table for longer than an hour without seeing at lease one card flip over. You deal with it. Your friend sounds like a very rude person, exactly the kind that I wouldn't have fun playing poker with.
 
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My mother works as a professional poker dealer @Fallsview Casino. I can understand your friend being upset by the deal but it was a mistake-everyone makes them. It's how we deal with them that is important. This dealer accidentally ruined the hand while your friend deliberately, intentionally ruined the hand and clearly; with lack of consideration for the other players who WERE in the hand. You will never hear pro's crying & acting like little biotches because of a misdeal. They suck it up, no matter how frustrating & move on. Too me, sounds like it was your friend behaving like the little "b*tch" and that penalty was more than well deserved. I don't know how it is for casino dealers in the U.S but here in canada, they don't get paid even half the amount to put up with even a quarter of the bullshit that they are subjected to.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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My mother works as a professional poker dealer @Fallsview Casino. I can understand your friend being upset by the deal but it was a mistake-everyone makes them. It's how we deal with them that is important. This dealer accidentally ruined the hand while your friend deliberately, intentionally ruined the hand and clearly; with lack of consideration for the other players who WERE in the hand. You will never hear pro's crying & acting like little biotches because of a misdeal. They suck it up, no matter how frustrating & move on. Too me, sounds like it was your friend behaving like the little "b*tch" and that penalty was more than well deserved. I don't know how it is for casino dealers in the U.S but here in Canada, they don't get paid even half the amount to put up with even a quarter of the bullshit that they are subjected to.

amen!

treat your dealer stafff with respect and dignity...they work very hard for their money and deal with drunk, rude, tilted and bitter people all day.
 
U

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My mother works as a professional poker dealer @Fallsview Casino. I can understand your friend being upset by the deal but it was a mistake-everyone makes them. It's how we deal with them that is important. This dealer accidentally ruined the hand while your friend deliberately, intentionally ruined the hand and clearly; with lack of consideration for the other players who WERE in the hand. You will never hear pro's crying & acting like little biotches because of a misdeal. They suck it up, no matter how frustrating & move on. Too me, sounds like it was your friend behaving like the little "b*tch" and that penalty was more than well deserved. I don't know how it is for casino dealers in the U.S but here in Canada, they don't get paid even half the amount to put up with even a quarter of the bullshit that they are subjected to.

I have so much respect for this post.

The only difference in America is that we have Indian casinos all over the place, which have slightly different pay structures if I recall correctly.

Your main points still stand though. I just felt like noting this.
 
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Life is too short to let things such as a clumsy dealer stress you out , those pocket aces could have gotten cracked and felted your buddy as well so it may be a blessing in disguise.(not a statistical probability but who knows)

If a person does something that twists you a bit with no mal-intent let it go and hope you are given the same break when you need it (you will , we all do).
 
Beanfacekilla

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Here is my 2 cents:

Your friend is kind of a jerk. Accidents happen, the dealer is not perfect.

Then, he rage folds out of order, and exposes his hand. He ruined the hand for everyone else also.



He should have just quietly folded, and kept his cool. I think your friend was out of line.


However, should he be punished? I don't know about that. I don't like when people rage fold and expose their cards out of turn.


Tell your friend to grow up, relax, and have a little courtesy for people (including the dealer, who isn't perfect).


Yeah the dealer could have offered an apology, sure.... But it sounds to me like your friend was all mad, acting like a child, throwing his cards in face up for all to see. Why should gthe dealer apologize after that?

Out of line.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

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I do agree that my friend was out of line and got angry over his hole cards of pocket Aces getting ruined. But I didn't know casino would make a big deal out of it. I thought it would be a penalty if the action has been made and he randomly did it out of turn since it's not fair for someone who acted and then cards get exposed. But since no action has been made yet, I didn't think they would've been a big deal because everyone was exposed to what cards are out before they make their decisions. Hand just ended quickly by sb and bb chopping the pot but game got paused and dealer called floorperson to give penalty to my friend.

Like someone said here, I think it's just result-orientation because if the card that got flipped over was 2 and then the third card was an Ace, then he would not be acting like that but rather, thank the dealer, which would be quite hypocritical. For me, when I faced misdeals, I've never cared because only time I think I "could've" had was low pocket pair that just turned into rags.

For me, I got used to misdeals and flipped cards because I've been playing lot of home games lately opposed to my friend who mostly plays at casinos. In home games where I play, every button player deals and since the table is oval-shaped, the ones that don't sit in the middle but instead, on the edges, they have hard time dealing across the table and cards get flipped up often but people keep things social and friendly. But for my friend, I guess he got angry because he didn't expect professional dealers to do it and to have it happen to ruin pocket Aces, he got butthurt over it. I've seen misdeals happen in Hollywood Park Casino and when everyone just open mucked after dealer announces misdeal just to tell the dealer that they're happy of misdeal bcz they got rags anyways, hand just quietly moved on and people didn't make a big deal out of it but I'm surprised for my friend, dealer did make a big deal out of it and end up in penalty.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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by the way, at WSOP they are such sticklers for this that if you accidentally expose your hand with action pending, you get a 1 round penatly...even if it is totally obvious to everyone that it was an accident.

so in this casino, the floor peson was being VERY VERY nice to your friend....

Holy shoot. You get a penalty even if it was an accident? Oh crap. I've mucked my cards the wrong way few times and cards got flipped over few times in the past. I've just apologized to the dealer and the table every time that happened and people didn't make a big deal out of it. But of course, this was just a cash game, not a tournament. I better pay more attention to this when playing tournaments.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I do agree that my friend was out of line and got angry over his hole cards of pocket Aces getting ruined. But I didn't know casino would make a big deal out of it. I thought it would be a penalty if the action has been made and he randomly did it out of turn since it's not fair for someone who acted and then cards get exposed. But since no action has been made yet, I didn't think they would've been a big deal because everyone was exposed to what cards are out before they make their decisions. Hand just ended quickly by sb and bb chopping the pot but game got paused and dealer called floorperson to give penalty to my friend.

Like someone said here, I think it's just result-orientation because if the card that got flipped over was 2 and then the third card was an Ace, then he would not be acting like that but rather, thank the dealer, which would be quite hypocritical. For me, when I faced misdeals, I've never cared because only time I think I "could've" had was low pocket pair that just turned into rags.

For me, I got used to misdeals and flipped cards because I've been playing lot of home games lately opposed to my friend who mostly plays at casinos. In home games where I play, every button player deals and since the table is oval-shaped, the ones that don't sit in the middle but instead, on the edges, they have hard time dealing across the table and cards get flipped up often but people keep things social and friendly. But for my friend, I guess he got angry because he didn't expect professional dealers to do it and to have it happen to ruin pocket Aces, he got butthurt over it. I've seen misdeals happen in Hollywood Park Casino and when everyone just open mucked after dealer announces misdeal just to tell the dealer that they're happy of misdeal bcz they got rags anyways, hand just quietly moved on and people didn't make a big deal out of it but I'm surprised for my friend, dealer did make a big deal out of it and end up in penalty.

I have actually had this happen to me more than once.

Once I remember I would have had KK, and another time AA.


I honestly don't even care really. I think "oh well, at least I am not going to get sucked out and lose a big pot." And also I never said a word about my cards until the hand was over.


The dealers at the casino I frequent are very cool to me always. I understand mistakes happen, and I would never bitch about it. It is not going to change anything to get all mad. It will just cause tension.

But as far as your friend exposing his cards, totally uncool. He changed the course of the hand, the way things went. I guarantee the dude with 7-7 would have played.... The hand would have gone differently had he not done that.
 
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