$60 NLHE Deep Stacked: Is this a Muck?

$60 NL HE Deep Stacked: Is this a Muck?

I saw the absolute strangest poker ruling last night. Two buddies and myself are playing a $60 buy in MTT at the Borgata. The first break has just finished and my mate has a monster chip lead at his table. Hero is OTB with



He calls a 3bet from villain UTG holding



and the flop comes


Villain shoves and Hero calls for about 15% of his stack. Villain flips his trips and Hero says calmly, “Ah crap”, and tosses his cards about ½ way between his chips and the pot. The Ace is face down and the king face up. The turn and river comes



Villain is all happy until Hero flips over the Ace and Villain cries out that Hero had mucked his hand. After much review, they rule that the hand was mucked and Villain had won the hand.
I just don’t get it; the guy was all in, how could it have been a muck?

I've seen this and at my casino this would be a muck. Most casinos have a very clear rule about this. Some have a line in the felt (A big oval) that if cards cross it's a fold, some without the lines say if you push your cards out. Almost all of them will say if you turn throw your cards face down then it's a muck. It would be a different story if your friend had meant to throw them face up, stated the fact and reached out and turned them face up before the turn and river cards were dealt but he clearly had given up on this hand and thought his hand was a loser. Every casino I've ever played at advises to not let go of your cards until the pot gets pushed to the winner.

What?
Why didnt the dealer turn over his cards before the turn and river where dealt?

StormRaven said:

I've seen this and at my casino this would be a muck. Most casinos have a very clear rule about this. Some have a line in the felt (A big oval) that if cards cross it's a fold, some without the lines say if you push your cards out. Almost all of them will say if you turn throw your cards face down then it's a muck. It would be a different story if your friend had meant to throw them face up, stated the fact and reached out and turned them face up before the turn and river cards were dealt but he clearly had given up on this hand and thought his hand was a loser. Every casino I've ever played at advises to not let go of your cards until the pot gets pushed to the winner.

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I was just blown away that that rule applies when a player is all in. I never such a pissed of accountant. lol

sindri_93 said:

What?
Why didnt the dealer turn over his cards before the turn and river where dealt?

Click to expand...

I wasn't there at that point, but I did see how his cards were maybe a card length over the chip line. I'm pretty sure the dealer was as surprised at the, "He Mucked It!" call, as was my mate.

i can understand that if the cards are past the line then it's a fold/muck. But if 2ppl are all-in on the flop then both cards should b flipped over and then decide who the winner is on the river.
Ur friend didnt turn over one of his card so this mite of sent some signal to the dealer as he has given up on his hand.
Unlucky tho, mayb nxt time he's all-in he should flip over both of his cards and wait to see who the winner is...

IMO this is on the dealer, when both players were allin they should of flipped their cards over before the turn and river is dealt under Roberts rules of Poker under the Tournament section 34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete. the dealer should not deal the turn and river until both cards are turned over for each player.

I have also seen where a player is all in and gets called and flips cards over and tosses them towards the dealer and one flips back over face down this is not a muck the dealer dropped the ball and it cost your friend.

While we don't have the benefit of video in this case, and it doesn't sound like there was any deliberate angle shooting involved, this is a pretty similar situation to the one in this thread:

https://www.cardschat.com/f53/whos-wrong-whos-right-160621/

Long story short, even if technically the hand was mucked, as long as the cards can be clearly identified as belonging to the player and it's in the interests of fairness to do so then the hand can be un-mucked.

Though as people have pointed out above, in a tournament once the players are all in they need to turn both cards over. The dealer should actually have insisted that happen before he dealt the turn and river and this wouldn't have been a problem.

I agree that the tourney rules were not followed. The dealer is supposed to turn the cards over before dealing, on this the dealer made a huge mistake.

With that said, when a player throws their cards after saying something like "ah crap" it definitely looks like that player mucked them and gave up on the hand.

BUT, since it was a tourney, if the cards didn't touch any other cards or the board, the dealer had an obligation to turn them face up.

**Another point: I had a guy do something similar to me in a tourney. I had him wasted on the flop, we were both all in. When he saw my hand he stood up and threw his cards face down at the dealer and one of the cards landed in the dealers chip tray. The dealer called the floor over, not me, before dealing out the turn and river and the floor said it was technically a muck but they left it up to me. I did what I always do, cuz I'm an idiot, and told the floor to not muck the hand. The guy hit runner runner on me and won the pot. I believe in karma though...

I think muck is the correct call. If they let that one slip, you might as well get a set of dice and head to a different table.

Surprising the dealer didn't flip the other card.