10,000 hours of practice will not necessarily make you a poker master

punctual · Jul 8, 2014

I have always had the belief that after playing a certain number of hands in poker, I would be a professional. I had thought that everyone had their own number: for me it might be 500,000 hands, for others 1,000,000 and yet for others merely 100,000. This line of thought is similar to theories which have suggested that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a master at something.

Well, the results of a new study seems to contradict the 10,000 hour rule.

Depending on whether one classifies poker as a game, sport, or profession, the percentage difference that playing 10,000 hours of poker has on one's performance ranges between 1% (if poker is a profession) and 26% (if poker is a game).

Anyone have an opinion on this?

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-...dwells-10000-rule-2014-7?utm_source=hootsuite

Diogo Jorge · Jul 8, 2014

I saw this new study, and i trust that can be possible on poker too. 10k of hours, that's too much hours and in that time you will get knowledge to get pro, but 10k of hours just count if you have discipline on you're doing, not waste 10k of hours, you mean?

Jollocks · Jul 9, 2014

Don't really think it's how long you play. I think it's how you learn. Someone could play 10 million hands and not analyze what they did wrong or right. Someone might only play 500,000 hands and analyze their game and still be a better player than the guy whose play 10 million.

punctual · Jul 9, 2014

Jollocks said:
Don't really think it's how long you play. I think it's how you learn. Someone could play 10 million hands and not analyze what they did wrong or right. Someone might only play 500,000 hands and analyze their game and still be a better player than the guy whose play 10 million.

Diogo Jorge said:
I saw this new study, and i trust that can be possible on poker too. 10k of hours, that's too much hours and in that time you will get knowledge to get pro, but 10k of hours just count if you have discipline on you're doing, not waste 10k of hours, you mean?

Both comments are very valid. It is not the quantity of hands played it is the care with which hands are played that matters most. So if you play 1,000,000 hands without your heart in the game well then you probably did not learn much from those 1,000,000 hands

cotta777 · Jul 12, 2014

The only thing I can say for certain is with the experience of hands in excess 250,000+ I can predict the mainstream tendencies of other players .
This will take you so far online, Since your gonna be like, His range in this spot is XYZ, or I'm beat in the spot almost all of the time

I still think its's a huge variable scope to measure, You could spend 10 year in solitary isolation with a pen and paper and come out ten years later and your hand writing hasn't changed much.

The same can happen in poker if your not getting it. and alot of people don't get it.
They just believe they do because they read and watch others succeed.
to every person that makes it there are thousands that don't

zaxxorr · Jul 13, 2014

Well to be frank, experience trumps all, but it's HOW you use your experiences, you have to have an open mind and be willing to admit where your wrong, hand reviewing helps A LOT, as well as watching better players sessions on youtube. But like my old roommate told me, practice, doesn't make perfect. PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect, if you do not practice in optimal ways you cannot become "perfect" in your own view

theRaven68 · Jul 13, 2014

Jollocks said:
Don't really think it's how long you play. I think it's how you learn. Someone could play 10 million hands and not analyze what they did wrong or right. Someone might only play 500,000 hands and analyze their game and still be a better player than the guy whose play 10 million.

Quality of learning is above quantity of watched hands, analyzing is more important than just playing or watching hands without any clue

Propane Goat · Jul 13, 2014

Can't disagree with anything here. I used to go to a few sales training workshops and the speaker always made the point about the difference between 20 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times.

We always hear that practice makes perfect, however I think only perfect practice makes perfect. If you're practicing the wrong things, you're just getting better at making the same mistakes.

JPoling · Jul 13, 2014

Jollocks said:
Don't really think it's how long you play. I think it's how you learn. Someone could play 10 million hands and not analyze what they did wrong or right. Someone might only play 500,000 hands and analyze their game and still be a better player than the guy whose play 10 million.

BINGO! Right there. Doesn't matter how long you have played poker for. It is the knowledge you have gained and implemented into your game.

didanz · Jul 13, 2014

theRaven68 said:
Quality of learning is above quantity of watched hands, analyzing is more important than just playing or watching hands without any clue

agree.I spend approximately fifty percent learning and fifty playing.Still got a long way to go .Only been at it for two years.

Ryan Laplante · Jul 13, 2014

JPoling said:
BINGO! Right there. Doesn't matter how long you have played poker for. It is the knowledge you have gained and implemented into your game.

Agreed. This is by far the most important aspect in getting better.

Quality >> Quantity

Although both is required.

ILIKEFISH31 · Jul 14, 2014

I spent some time in the chess community before finding and falling in love with poker. You would be absolutely astonished at how the average, non poker playing person perceives this amazing game that we play. Their perception of the game is so dumbed down and simplistic that it's basically an insult.

They all seem to have this idea that chess is so superior to poker intellectually and it's mainly because they have absolutely no understanding of how to really play poker. Sure, they know bet - raise - fold and they understand a minuscule about positioning, but that's just about all they understand or even think there is to understand about poker.

I'm partially attracted to this game because I'm taking a shot at becoming successful at something so, so many try but fail at. I am willing to bet that a large, large portion of the people who play poker "casually" tried to make it more than that at one point and just flat out failed. I'm not bashing them as there is a good chance that I will fail, too ...but I'm definitely going to give it 110% for several years and see what I come up with.

Poker is harder to improve at than many other things since you don't often get the solution to the problem played out in front of you and therefore it's hard to know what the right decision was in retrospect. Sometimes you just have to speculate. In just about every other venue in life, you know when you made a mistake and you know what that mistake was. Poker isn't as candid with you and I think this (among other facts) makes it one of the most complicated venues one could get themselves involved in.

ccocco · Jul 14, 2014

I'm not sure how many hours of play is what you will say if you are professional or not. tamibien is important because as you been in those tournaments or hands you have played. I think QE not only the number of hours of professional game but also make you able to live poker. as professionals.

punctual · Jul 15, 2014

ILIKEFISH31 said:
I spent some time in the chess community before finding and falling in love with poker. You would be absolutely astonished at how the average, non poker playing person perceives this amazing game that we play. Their perception of the game is so dumbed down and simplistic that it's basically an insult.

They all seem to have this idea that chess is so superior to poker intellectually and it's mainly because they have absolutely no understanding of how to really play poker. Sure, they know bet - raise - fold and they understand a minuscule about positioning, but that's just about all they understand or even think there is to understand about poker.

I'm partially attracted to this game because I'm taking a shot at becoming successful at something so, so many try but fail at. I am willing to bet that a large, large portion of the people who play poker "casually" tried to make it more than that at one point and just flat out failed. I'm not bashing them as there is a good chance that I will fail, too ...but I'm definitely going to give it 110% for several years and see what I come up with.

Poker is harder to improve at than many other things since you don't often get the solution to the problem played out in front of you and therefore it's hard to know what the right decision was in retrospect. Sometimes you just have to speculate. In just about every other venue in life, you know when you made a mistake and you know what that mistake was. Poker isn't as candid with you and I think this (among other facts) makes it one of the most complicated venues one could get themselves involved in.

I have always loved chess. I like the uncertainty inherent of poker; i think poker better reflects the real world. Even in the real world we see underdogs becoming wildly successful. I like the fact that in poker you can do everything right and still lose and you can do everything wrong and still win. What pros have that the rest of us do not have is the experience to know when to make a particular move . Now you are dealing with speculation of the uncertain: navigating the waters of uncertainty takes experience. I just wonder how many hands I will need to play before I develop that level of expertise. I'm not in any kind of rush but how does one even know if one is making progress?

alext9000 · Jul 15, 2014

depends on how kind of practice you do...the things get different if you raise the stakes..the buy-in for tournaments..you can t compare 10k hours of playin 1$ STNG with 100$ buy in on tournaments..btw.. not all the people are made for playin it..

Arjonius · Jul 16, 2014

Ability does not simply increase as a function of hours or hands played. Different people learn / improve at different rates. The same person learns / improves at different rates at different times. Also, just playing doesn't necessarily have the same practice value as focusing learning / improving specific things while playing.

And how accurately can you quantify your % improvement, especially if you play different, better opponents as you improve?

sj_pi · Jul 16, 2014

Since one side of the equation is quantifiable as in 10k hours, the other side of the equation (Mastery in Poker) begs to be quantified in tangible terms.

So what exactly are we comparing 10k hours of poker practice to?
What exactly defines 'Mastery in Poker'?

Just curious thats all.

JPoling · Jul 16, 2014

sj_pi said:
Since one side of the equation is quantifiable as in 10k hours, the other side of the equation (Mastery in Poker) begs to be quantified in tangible terms.

So what exactly are we comparing 10k hours of poker practice to?
What exactly defines 'Mastery in Poker'?

Just curious thats all.

I think we woulf be comparing it to how we played when we started. Like I know I can look back and think "wow, i thought I knew poker and I was a hugh fish" that is how I know I am improving/improved. Seeing the results also prove it to. I think part of being a poker player is you gotta be modest. You cant be super ego about it or you probably wont learn or get any better.

Mase31683 · Aug 24, 2014

Yeah you'll get a more intuitive feel for the game after 10,000 hours. But if you're practicing poor play then it won't matter. You'll be a poor player who's played a lot.

That's the thing with poker. If you aren't actually studying the fundamental reasoning behind a play, you can't judge if you're learning good or bad behaviors. A very poor play can result in positive reinforcement, i.e. being awarded the pot and vice versa.

IMO, if you spent 10,000 hours practicing solid fundamentals and correct thought processes, then yes you would be greatly improved.

mrbiggles · Aug 24, 2014

I am almost finished a book that is a grouping of mini stories of how of some of the most famous poker players started.

Its a mixed bag & some went bankrupt multiple times before they learnt to play while others seemed to be able to play intuitively at a high level right from the start without much experience.

Rain92 · Aug 24, 2014

If youre aware at the tables surely that amount of time ill get you a rough idea on opponent playing styles. But there is only so much you can learn this way so outside learning is important too.

nmolliso · Aug 25, 2014

The more you focus on your own cards and how you play them, instead of focusing on your opponents, the longer it will take you to master the game.

10,000 hours of practice will not necessarily make you a poker master

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