left52side
Legend
Silver Level
Im sure casinos would much rather you dump money down the slots or play roulette than have you sitting hours at a poker table.
But I am pretty sure they make there fair share of rake at the 1/2 tables.
Alot of BM casinos have caps on the amount of rake they are taking and usually doesnt fluctuate much between limits as far as I could tell.
J
jsh169
Visionary
Silver Level
Like others said the individual rake is not a big form of revenue for the company, that being said, it brings significant others, and lets poker players degen else where, so it is a very complimentary feature to have.
S
Sohmurr
Rock Star
Silver Level
I've actually never been to a proper casino. There is, however, a local cardroom near me that has been running for probably close to 10 years, if not more. They seem to get by on rake alone. There are occasionally 5/10 NL games going, but I think most of their profit comes from the lower 1/2 games (limit and NL) as well as the tournament fees. It's not the classiest place, but it's not a dive either, so they must be doing well enough.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
In some cases you'll find 1/2 has a higher percentage rake cap compared to higher limit games... I haven't been in there for a while, but I think the cap on 1/2 at my local casino was capped at $15 or something crazy like that. But then this same place has also been known to take a $5/hr time charge AND rake each pot.
Short story is no it's not the casino's most profitable game. But there's also no chance of it making a big loss either, since the house always takes its rake regardless of the outcome. It's slow, steady, low-risk income, and it does get people through the door to spend money on other stuff (drinks, food, other games, etc.)
Short story is no it's not the casino's most profitable game. But there's also no chance of it making a big loss either, since the house always takes its rake regardless of the outcome. It's slow, steady, low-risk income, and it does get people through the door to spend money on other stuff (drinks, food, other games, etc.)
teepack
Legend
Bronze Level
I played for several hours at New Orleans Harrahs recently. I am pretty sure they capped the rake at $5 per hand. I would say that we generally got in about 30 hands per hour, and that at least 25 of those hands reached the maximum rake. You would have a few hands where there would be a raise pre-flop and nobody would call and so there would be no rake in those situations. So 25x5 means the table was generating $125 per hour of rake for the house. They probably had 20 total tables going, so if they were making $125 per hour per table, that's nearly $2,500 in revenue per hour from poker. I assume the rake at the higher limit tables is higher per hand? That should be more than enough to cover the salaries of the dealers, drink girls and floor supervisors. I would bet the room generates more than $30,000 of rake per day? If that's the case, that would be $210,000 a week and more than $10 million a year. That's got to be significant for the total casino revenues.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
I'm not saying it's impossible, but that's a very high figure for a live game. IIRC my local casino only looks to average about 20 per hour, and that's in games that use a 30-second shot clock.
At the right stakes sure - but they can lose that same $2,500 in five minutes on the same blackjack table too.
If you're talking about $2500 as an average or expected return, then you need to look at the house edge. House edge on blackjack varies depending on the house rules and how skilled the player is, someone else probably knows better than me but I think it's usually around 3% assuming an average-not-awful rule set and a player that knows basic strategy?
At that rate if the casino expects to make $2500 from a blackjack table (over any given period), it means it's expecting the player(s) to make something in the order of $85,000 worth of bets. That's going to either take some pretty high stakes, or a really long time...
Carl Trooper
Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
Casinos make their money from the table games. Poker gets people in who want to play poker, and occasionally dabble with table games like myself.
Poker is good for dealers to if they get tipped nicely.
Poker is good for dealers to if they get tipped nicely.
wanderingthehall
Rock Star
Silver Level
In Cali, rake is high enough that they are definitely a money maker for the cardrooms. Some of the casinos it's just a little feature to get people into the casino. As long as the casino isn't losing money on a regular basis, it's usually worth having the extra game to get a few more players in the door. Their are plenty of poker players who have wives that love slot machines and the casino makes plenty of money on those!
Mase31683
Legend
Silver Level
At the Sun and Foxwoods I always got about 30 hands per hour. This is over the course of several thousand hours of play. They both have card shuffling machines, so if you're in some backwoods place where the dealer shuffles then yeah it'll be lower.
The rake was $1 on the flop, $1 @ $20 pot, $1 @ $30 pot, $1 @ $40 and capped at the $4. Most any hand getting to the flop would hit the $40. Standard raise was $10, even one caller makes $20 on the flop and a half pot bet and call there makes $40. Let's say 80% of hands get to the flop and half of those make $40 (this is low imo, it was much closer to 1/10 hands taking it down preflop).
That'd be:
20% * $0 = $0
.5(.80) $2 = $0.80
.5(.80) $4 = $1.60
This would give a per hand rake of $2.40 (again I feel this figure is higher, but erring on the low side)
$2.40 * 30 hands per hour = $72/hour
At Foxwoods prior to the Sun's room opening $200nl was $5/30minutes. That's way easier to calculate.
$5*9 = $45 * 2 = $90/hour
They ended up moving to a normal rake structure, granted with heavy player influence, but I'm sure they didn't make the change based on the goodness of their hearts. I would be very confident in saying they're doing at least as well as they did when charging time.
The rake was $1 on the flop, $1 @ $20 pot, $1 @ $30 pot, $1 @ $40 and capped at the $4. Most any hand getting to the flop would hit the $40. Standard raise was $10, even one caller makes $20 on the flop and a half pot bet and call there makes $40. Let's say 80% of hands get to the flop and half of those make $40 (this is low imo, it was much closer to 1/10 hands taking it down preflop).
That'd be:
20% * $0 = $0
.5(.80) $2 = $0.80
.5(.80) $4 = $1.60
This would give a per hand rake of $2.40 (again I feel this figure is higher, but erring on the low side)
$2.40 * 30 hands per hour = $72/hour
At Foxwoods prior to the Sun's room opening $200nl was $5/30minutes. That's way easier to calculate.
$5*9 = $45 * 2 = $90/hour
They ended up moving to a normal rake structure, granted with heavy player influence, but I'm sure they didn't make the change based on the goodness of their hearts. I would be very confident in saying they're doing at least as well as they did when charging time.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, but 30 hands an hour is very fast for a live game.
Even with a shuffling machine, physically dealing the cards to a full table of players takes about 15 seconds. Even if they were shuffling manually though, that should only add about another 10 seconds.
In a live game, it's the players who have far and away the biggest influence on the number of hands you see per hour. 30 hands per hour means you're aiming to have a whole hand play out in under two minutes after the cards are dealt - some players can tank that long on just one street
So unless you're playing in a game where somehow preflop raises take it down most hands (and let's be honest, the bulk of live $1-$2 players don't come to the casino to fold preflop) averaging two minutes per hand is pretty optimistic.
Even with a shuffling machine, physically dealing the cards to a full table of players takes about 15 seconds. Even if they were shuffling manually though, that should only add about another 10 seconds.
In a live game, it's the players who have far and away the biggest influence on the number of hands you see per hour. 30 hands per hour means you're aiming to have a whole hand play out in under two minutes after the cards are dealt - some players can tank that long on just one street
So unless you're playing in a game where somehow preflop raises take it down most hands (and let's be honest, the bulk of live $1-$2 players don't come to the casino to fold preflop) averaging two minutes per hand is pretty optimistic.
Mase31683
Legend
Silver Level
@Oz - One thing that could make the difference is I was playing $1knl and $500nl, so in general gameflow was smooth.
I hadn't thought about that, and I do remember some real slow players at $200nl when playing those games. So maybe 20hands/hour would be more like it.
In that case it'd be something around $50/hour per table
I hadn't thought about that, and I do remember some real slow players at $200nl when playing those games. So maybe 20hands/hour would be more like it.
In that case it'd be something around $50/hour per table
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
I'd assumed you were talking $1-2. At higher stakes, with mostly competent players who don't hold up the game unnecessarily I can definitely see you getting in more hands per hour.
I'd still be (pleasantly) surprised if it actually got up near the 30/hr mark on a regular basis though. That's basically describing a game where everyone acts on their hand pretty much immediately and there's almost never any tanking.
I'd still be (pleasantly) surprised if it actually got up near the 30/hr mark on a regular basis though. That's basically describing a game where everyone acts on their hand pretty much immediately and there's almost never any tanking.
A2345Razz
Legend
Silver Level
Ive played in many rooms, and nowhere, no how, no way, does any live full ring game get 30 hands in a hr. Don't forget about the minute they lose washing the deck...the minute they lose changing dealers, the minute they lose when the floor has to come over...the 5 mins someone takes every couple hours on a huge overbet...etc. etc.
There were many threads on 2p2 back in the day on this and the consensus from players was the figure was somewhere around 23-26 hands/hr in live FR NLH.
Also, very few rooms make much at all on their poker room...but SOME of the larger ones where economies of scale operate vis a vis floor people/donkmanets can make a steady decent profit.
There were many threads on 2p2 back in the day on this and the consensus from players was the figure was somewhere around 23-26 hands/hr in live FR NLH.
Also, very few rooms make much at all on their poker room...but SOME of the larger ones where economies of scale operate vis a vis floor people/donkmanets can make a steady decent profit.