Zoom, rush, snap etc

Hey guys and gals.

I started playing Zoom a while back, and It's very fun indeed cuz it goes quick. The downside is that it is hard to really grind out a profit from it. I actually managed to bust my entire bankroll (roughly 100$) just by playing 2NL Zoom on stars. (Yeah, yeah I know...)

Well on to my questions!

Is there any way to make a good profit of the microstakes Zoom tables?
I mean like is it beatable? I've seen so many things on those tables that I'd start beleive in both santa and the easter bunny right away lol.
I've seen grinders manage but I am either lacking skills or aproaching the game with the wrong playstyle.

So, furthermore, wich playstyle is the best to achieve this?

Cheers

First of all patience, and second and last, Always try the three-bet! The bluff is most commonly used in this type of game!

I have played the 888 snap freeroll and have actually cashed in one out of 3.

These run quite regular, I just keep forgetting to play them

These freerolls are handy if you are starting from zero, be prepared to play a lot to get a decent BR.

Easy to be patient since it goes quick ^^ but could you explain a little deeper about the 3-bet? Are we talking squeeze play, what bet sizings etc.

Yeah everton, tried a few of them myself ^^ haven't cashed in anyone yet tough but I'll get there sooner or later

BoddJonar said:

Easy to be patient since it goes quick ^^ but could you explain a little deeper about the 3-bet? Are we talking squeeze play, what bet sizings etc.

Yeah everton, tried a few of them myself ^^ haven't cashed in anyone yet tough but I'll get there sooner or later

Click to expand...

That's the spirit, don't let the poker gods conquer you, you will cash soon

Allright, I'm gonna share 2 intresting hands here that occured to me during Zoom.

First hand (Occured today on Mcnaught 0,01-0,02)

Having a sweet run. Stack is almost 11$ (550 bbs)
Picking up pocket rockets in cut-off.
Making a standard raise of 4 bbs, wanting to get some action.
Russian imba pro with a stack of 13$ raise me to 18bbs from sb.
I decide to call since want to show the imba russian that I might submit to a c-bet on a dangerous board.
Flop comes: A Q 3 rainbow.
Russian imba pro thinks before firing a 80% pot bet.
Me, thinking he might got QQ or an AK something something.
Minimum raise him/her for a call thinking that he/she would call.
Russian imba pro decides that I'm bluffing or have me beat since he insta shoves.
Me, happy calls w/o hesitation.
Turn K
River 10
Russian imba pro shows AJ for a straight and scoops it all.

FML.
Imo this happens alot at the zoom tables.

Second is 1 that went my way.
Happened roughly 3 months ago on 25NL Zoom 6-man.

Sitting on dealer with 123$, almost 5 Bis. Pretty sweet run that was.
Looking down at A8 off.
Decide to make a move on the blinds since the pot was unopened.
Raise 3 bbs.
BB with 109$ calls.
Flop is 668 rainbow.
Top pair, top kicker wowser.
C-bets 40% of the pot after villian checks, roughly 75c.
Villian calls.
Turn is an Ace, still rainbow.
Villian checks.
Me, figuring I still have the best hand decide to fire a dollar bet.
Villian calls. Pot is roughly 5$.
River is another Ace.
Villian shoves.
Me, starting to feel uncomfortable. Having the second nut hand, but not THE nutz.
Decides to call the shove with the intention to puke if he shows quad sixes.
Villian shows AK for a full house, Aces full of sixes. I show my Aces full of eights. I win. Happy face, and no pukes.

Hey guys.

Was doing a 20 hand zoom session at 2nl 6max
Yesterday.
At hand 17 I looked down at kings. Made a standard 4xbb raise and bb shoves. Called him down and he showed aces. Well just a cooler I thought.
Three hands later Im in dealer pos looking down at kings again. Same story here, Bb shoves and I call. He shows aces and I'm dead again.

This happens way more times then it should. Well the hand samples arent huge, but roughly 7 times of 10 when calling a shove with kings you face aces.
Should you avoid calling shoves with kings when playing zoom? I really need somebody more experienced and with bigger volume than me to lecture me about this!
3,15 $ behind cuz of that

Cheers

If you lost your whole BR of $100 at 2nl zoom then you have some big leaks in your game. You should never go bust at 2nl with 50 buy-ins given how bad all the players are.

In general at zoom your ranges should be tighter. It's really hard to say what you need to do to beat it because you haven't shown any hands but if I was guessing you're probably calling way to much in every position, not value betting correctly and calling down way to light.

Just post hands on the forum for better feedback on how to improve your game.

Are you using Poker Tracker or HEM? Its pretty much impossible to tell how people play in ZOOM without these, so it would be good to go grab a trial versaion if you don't

I have some ~100k hands across 5NL and 10NL full ring ZOOM games since I started playing cash games this year.

As for your question you should never fold KK to a shove against unknowns especially at micros. Sure sometimes you'll get smashed by AA but the times they show up with worse are way way way more. I think you're just not remembering the times you call shoves and they show up trash.

On that note, when you see someone who either open shove all in or 3b shove all in, watch the hand and make a note whether they do it with worse. Because if its a fish and you noted it down, you can call him with way way worse than KK and be extremely profitable. I once noted a fish jamming trash, a few hands later I ran into him again I open with AQ and he jams for ~200BB(I was deep as well). I read the note I had on him, considered for, said **** it and called. He turned over Q8o.

Hold ctrl while clicking the quick fold button to watch the hand play out if you didn't know that.

You were probably playing too lose when you busted your initial roll. I don't think its difficult to grind out a profit in these games. Well mayb the rake kills if you play too many marginal/breakeven spots but I play pretty nitty and so far has been crushing the game aside from a couple extremely bad sessions where I lacked focus.

Another advice is I notice you jumping around different stakes to 25NL and whatnot. Thats not really a good idea. Not only is the play different at the levels(and you're probably outclassed bad if you go bust at 2NL no offense), you may start to think the 2NL game insignificant and lose focus.

Given you haven't proven you can win with reasonable consistency at 2NL, you probably have no business playing higher. 2NL is a level where you can be profitable just by playing solid enough to make fewer poor decision than most opponents. This isn't enough to let you crush this level, but just winning small is waaaay better than losing 50 buyins.

Also, you're probably better off playing full ring than 6max since it's easier to play tight.

thats way to much to lose
def. doing some things wrong
post some big loss hands and we'll see if we can help

I've hit some unluckiness,but thats only losing 5-10 buyins not 50

and the number of hands seen an hour makes the bad beats/coolers stand out a bit more, but its all normal

gl

Hey guys and thanks for the answers!

ramdeebam:
Yeah, I got huge leaks. Mtt's and SnG's works, but I've never figured cash out. Or well, I can grind out a small profit in normal ring games, but I'm having trouble with ZOOM. I'll try to post some hands once I get my BR big enough for playing again

tohos:
No, I'm not using anything at the moment. I was thinking of getting a trial for PT4, just don't know how it all works (the HUD and what all the numbers mean) and I want to wait a bit, since the trial is like a month or so? In my current life situation I can't really make that time count in meanings of volume since I have a full time job and a girlfriend who isn't too keen about me spending time at the computer instead of her.. lol. (Under the thumb)
The times I was playing higher I had a BR for it. I had to cash out due to shortage of work wich made me unemployed for 2 months, and all that I left was 100$. And at that time I made 100$ in a 6 hour session at 5NL Zoom, but that's probably the best run I've had. Guess I ran hot, because clearly there's a ton of leaks :/

Arjonius:
Yeah, I'm staying wherever my BR permits me too I wont go higher until I'm rolled for it. 6-max is a bit swingy isn't it? I'm gonna get back and try once I grind my roll back up.

micualupagoo:
Yep, I know. But I'm planning on changing that for the better.
I will when I get back into the game Thanks a bunch!


Cheers guys

Quite a few players at 2NL Zoom have massive and obvious sizing tells. Use notes and it is easy peasy.

Example (quite common):

pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed)

Button ($2)
Hero (SB) ($2.16)
BB ($2.56)
UTG ($2.25)
UTG+1 ($3.09)
MP1 ($1.90)
MP2 ($3.10)
MP3 ($1.75)
CO ($1.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , K
UTG raises to $0.22, 6 folds, Hero ?

Question: UTG is semi-unknown due to only 20-30 hands played, he plays 29/21/AF 14

a) What is his likely holding here (or multiple likely holdings with approximate frequencies) and do you call, 3bet, shove or fold?
b) What if he open shoved instead?

Correct answer is worth probably at least 0.5-1bb/100 over a large sample. Of course you will eventually see what he has here but there is an entire class of these guys.

LD1977 said:

Quite a few players at 2NL Zoom have massive and obvious sizing tells. Use notes and it is easy peasy.

Example (quite common):

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed)

Button ($2)
Hero (SB) ($2.16)
BB ($2.56)
UTG ($2.25)
UTG+1 ($3.09)
MP1 ($1.90)
MP2 ($3.10)
MP3 ($1.75)
CO ($1.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, K

UTG raises to $0.22, 6 folds, Hero ?

Question: UTG is semi-unknown due to only 20-30 hands played, he plays 29/21/AF 14

a) What is his likely holding here (or multiple likely holdings with approximate frequencies) and do you call, 3bet, shove or fold?
b) What if he open shoved instead?

Correct answer is worth probably at least 0.5-1bb/100 over a large sample. Of course you will eventually see what he has here but there is an entire class of these guys.

Click to expand...

See it is when it comes to theese things I'm so lost.
I'f I am to assume something I'd say he has something like AT - AA, but since the bet from utg is 11 BB's I'd go for QQ to AA.
But then again I get confused since he seems like such a LAG player.
Omg, no clue. Answer please? ;o

These are the hands you should see how they play out. Sometimes you can get to see them go to showdown and then you can take note what hands they're doing this with

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 60.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
SB: 100.4 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
BB: 223.2 BB (VPIP: 31.82, PFR: 31.82, 3Bet Preflop: 37.50, Hands: 22)
UTG: 134.8 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
UTG+1: 33.2 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 6.78, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 121)
UTG+2: 75.2 BB (VPIP: 20.69, PFR: 13.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
MP: 42.6 BB (VPIP: 17.38, PFR: 9.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.89, Hands: 331)
MP+1: 61.8 BB (VPIP: 12.96, PFR: 12.96, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 56)
Hero (CO): 290.8 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A♣ Q♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 223.2 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 220.2 BB

Flop: (446.8 BB, 2 players) 5♦ 4♣ 5♠

Turn: (446.8 BB, 2 players) K♠

River: (446.8 BB, 2 players) Q♥

[spoil]BB shows A♦ T♥ (One Pair, Fives) (Pre 25%, Flop 21%, Turn 18%)
Hero shows A♣ Q♣ (Two Pair, Queens and Fives) (Pre 75%, Flop 79%, Turn 82%)
Hero wins 428.2 BB
[/spoil]

Obviously you can't go around calling 200bb shove with AQs pre. But because you took notes on these maniac spewtards, you can call them lighter and be very profitable. This guy did the same shit with Q8o a few hands earlier. You can still get unlucky and lose but usually you're gonna crush them if you have at least a big Ace.

So the answer is take notes. Just because you're not playing doesn't mean you shouldn't see the hand, even in ZOOM. It is very profitable to do so. Especially when non-standard sizings and actions are involved. It gives you tells that you can use when you run into the same villains again. If you can't take notes while playing all the tables, pause the session for a few seconds and do it, the tiny volume you lose will be more than made up for by the edge you gain over these villains in the long run.

In my example, such raise sizing is never AA/KK but almost always some kind of medium Ace or some kind of "uncomfortable" pair like TT-JJ. It screams "I don't want any calls". He had A8o and actually sucked out there with his 8 but that is besides the point. I 3bet shoved since these muppets commit themselves with this sizing

Open shove can go from garbage to AA depending on the opponent. Some are afraid their AA might be cracked so they open shove it, others are spewtards who just shove randomly. You want to get their money ASAP.

Ok, I sometimes play 0,02/0,05 zoom 6-max.
After a few losing sessions, just a bit more than 2000 hands, so actually small sample, I decided to check the hands I played (in PT3).

Well, I don’t have to be a genius to find out where I go wrong.
For example, I lost almost $2 with 73s.
How can I lose that much with that trash ?

How can I lose so much with other trashhands ?

Obv...I am one of those spewtards, playing trashhands, chasing flushes or straights where I’m not even close to having the right odds to do so.

A pretty big leak in my game which I can fix, just after checking my tracker.

So, to become profitable, start checking the hands you played.
You’ll probably find the biggest leaks yourself.

After that you could post hands of which you’re kinda in doubt you played them wrong or not.

That’s not all....also check winning hands.
Try to find out you got enough value outof them.
Check your bet-sizing for example.

Sometimes it’s just little details which could be the difference between being a losing player or being a winning player...and yeah, ZOOM can be fun, but it’s really more fun if you win.

On a sidenote, losing a hand won’t always mean you played it wrong.

For example, so far Aks is a losing hand for me.
Actually that’s just because of 1 hand, where I flopped nut-flush, 1 guy shoved and I happilly called with my flush.
Board paired on the river and villain made a boat.
Not much I can do I think, but a $15 pot didn’t go my way and I ended my session with a small loss instead of a nice profit.
Just unlucky I think....not a mistake, so be it.

And as others said before....try to make notes when you see players do unusual stuff.
Information you have about players could really save you some money (not only in ZOOM but whatever you play).

Good luck

Thanks a bunch for the answers!

I will deffo get a HUD soon enough. And start paying more attention to bet sizings.
I could use some pointers about that. Seems like most people at micro's dont pay attention to bet sizing's at all, and that's confusing.
Also I've heard about Pokerstove, but not really sure how that works.
Something about equity from a shove?

Anymore obvious tells I should know about? Cash differs alot from tournaments...


Cheers

zoom is pretty different from the normal tables, seems to be the same but it is definitely not.
Post hands, hands and hands on the forum, that's the only way I know to try to fix your game.
I am sure you have several leaks, loosing 50BIs at the nl2 (even if it is zoom and has got higher variance).

What do play? 6max or FR?
Do you open enough from lp (btn/hj)??
Do you 3bet enough?

Zoom is a tighter game but sometimes playing too tight it is not profitable cos everybody is a way too tight and the game end up with coolers.
The position is everything. You can profit even just raising ip on the opponents without see your cards

Hey guys!

I got a hand from yesterday. Sadly I played it on my phone, so I have to write it down in the best way I can.

Positions are: UTG+2, SB and BB. I was on SB. And it was full-ring.
My stack: 2,13$
UTG+2: 1,62$
BB: 4$

UTG+2 calls bb, rest is folded to me. I look down at AT off, and decide to play it, even tough I'm oop after flop. I raise 4bb and both villians call.
Pot is now 0,24$
Flop is 3 2 10 rainbow. Pretty good flop I think to myself and I decide to bet
0,18$ or 9 bb's both for value and to scare eventual drawing hands away.
BB folds and UTG+2 calls.
Pot is now 0,60$.
Turn is an Ace of clubs. Now there's 2 clubs on the board.
Now I feel sure that I have the best hand since the action was so passive on both pre and post flop. And I figure I could get some more value from him if he has an ace or 2 pair with ace rag something.
I decide to bet 0,36$ for more value. Villian responds by shoving.
It will cost me 1$ for a 1,12$ pot.
I'm thinking that he might have hit an ace or a 2 pair.
Possibly a flushdraw since the second club came.
I call, and river is a blank.
He shows 33 for a flopped set and wins.


I don't feel like I played that hand good at all. That ace on turn really blinded
me from that since it gave me top 2 pair and at theese levels... Well. Let's just say that people calls shoves with a lot less.
I can't see notes on the phone, and I can't take them either so I don't know if I played with that guy before, but I'm pretty sure I ain't.
He played it good btw.

So guys, what could I have done differently? Did I play it right or wrong?
Wish that I could take notes on that dude.


Cheers

That 2Limit with 100 dollars bankroll is very high. Try to lower your limits. The higher the limit, the tougher the game. The variance is also high.
So much bad beat likewise.
Play tight, as in very very tight.

Goodluck.

On the AT hand, his hand range is likely to be suited connectors, suited Aces or pocket pockets usually. Although some microfish limp with other hands as well. The strongest hands he could have here are 22/33/45 but like you said, people shove and call shoves with worse at that limit. You didn't play wrong, just a cooler at 2NL. Your hand should be good very very often.

tohos said:

On the AT hand, his hand range is likely to be suited connectors, suited Aces or pocket pockets usually. Although some microfish limp with other hands as well. The strongest hands he could have here are 22/33/45 but like you said, people shove and call shoves with worse at that limit. You didn't play wrong, just a cooler at 2NL. Your hand should be good very very often.

Click to expand...

You know, I start to get the feeling that I'm the worst 2NL Zoom player out there I keep making mistakes and get punished for it. But more often then not I see people shove with second pairs, top pair rag etc so I figured I would be good.
The downside is that I played it on my phone so I couldn't label him or note him... Damnit!


Cheers

hffjd2000 said:

That 2Limit with 100 dollars bankroll is very high. Try to lower your limits. The higher the limit, the tougher the game. The variance is also high.
So much bad beat likewise.
Play tight, as in very very tight.

Goodluck.

Click to expand...

I think you're right. I need to tighten up loads!

Hey guys.

I really need an answer to this since this is shattering all of my common sense and logics.
As far as variance goes it has to end sometime and roll to my side.

I busted 2 buy ins at 2 Nl seconds ago. BOTH with KK.
And both of the times vs AA.
Can somebody please tell me how many times you have to face aces when holding kings?
I mean what are the odds that somebody is holding aces when you're holding kings in a full ring game?
I've seen it so many times in ZOOM so both the santa and the easter-bunny seem legit now.

Seriously this is really f***ing my mind up...

I'm sorry for sounding like a whiny fish here...

cheers