My Zoom Experience 100NL

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CrushingSouls

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I have now played about 11k hands on Zoom 100NL and it has surprised me I am down considering the number of donks in the pool and because of this I won't be playing it anymore.

Can Zoom be profitable? Well yes its possible but you would need a completely different game plan compared to normal poker and it seems very difficult. When you're hitting top set with a full house and still losing there is something wrong especially when it happens 3 times in the same session.

It seemed that whenever I started to run good I was slapped in the face by set over set, fullhouse vs quads or AA vs KK or well disguised gutshots hitting vs my set. The only reason I didn't lose more was because of me catching out the very bluffy players with their stack jams or big bets.

Unless I ran extremely bad over those 11k hands which I doubt I will be leaving Zoom and playing other games. Can anyone else share their experience?
 
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jsh169

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There are players that are very good going on stretches of break even over 100k hands, I would say 11k hands is to small to get but hurt about.
 
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CrushingSouls

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With perfect play I can see myself only getting 1 or 2bb profit over another 10k hands which is the absolute best outcome and would rely on making most of the money from the bluffers which is unpredictable as the majority of players are super tight.

If you have played zoom alot then share your experience otherwise I don't think you really understand how the variance in a Zoom session differs from a Normal session.
 
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Beasty2k

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I agree that bluff-catching is where a lot of money can be made in zoom, but it's a high variance strategy. My experience has been surprisingly accurate bluff-catching, when villain's line is far from standard...

For instance, villain check/calls low connected flop & turn after raising UTG and jams river when checked to. Or trying to take down limped/single raised pots oop with multiple callers - I am not folding my 66 IP against a fishy limper who bets the turn K. Obviously not correct 100% of the time, but enough to be profitable.

Bet sizing also seems to be fairly accurate - a weak bet = a vulnerable hand. Villian betting 20% pot on river is bluffable (or callable) most of the time.

I will say though, that my game definitely has changed since zoom - especially by becoming a "trapper" in position, calling with all sorts of junk and letting the tight zoom-regulars stack off with overpairs. Implied odds are generally high as many players are ultra-tight, so it's easy to know when to fold, call, value-bet or bluff raise a certain flop. Guess I am turning into a station :) but hopefully with some control.

Donk betting from blinds into the UTG raiser on a low board has also been profitable. And very aggressive blind stealing and re-stealing. Any A, K, Q or SC.

Regardless, back playing regular 6-max online or FR live - I am definitely helped by my zoom-experience and find it easier to outplay people, even without reads early on in session (helped by zoom).
 
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RamdeeBen

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Your surprised you are down in 100nl after 11k hands because of the amount of donks? I seriously think your down because you likely think you're better than you think. Even the absolute best of 100nl zoom players will have 10k hands and much more of a downswing.

Your post to me personally thinks you should drop down because any competent player would know this is pretty standard.

Zoom is profitble but your probarly not profitable at these limits yourself. I'm not trying to act like a **** towards you but your post really doesn't come across as someone who is capable at these limits yet.

You doubt you ran bad, which probably signals you have some big leaks in your zoom game because normal down swings happen when you run bad in genera or if you make mistakes yourself.

Personally; if I was you - I'd drop down grind a lower limit and if you cant beat that limit, then it's obviously it's your game that needs work.
 
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RamdeeBen

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With perfect play I can see myself only getting 1 or 2bb profit over another 10k hands which is the absolute best outcome and would rely on making most of the money from the bluffers which is unpredictable as the majority of players are super tight.

If you have played zoom alot then share your experience otherwise I don't think you really understand how the variance in a Zoom session differs from a Normal session.


This comment here highlights what I'm saying. A player who makes perfect plays (near impossible btw) for the whole part if they don't run bad, would win a lot more than 1 or 2bb over 10k hands. Or do you mean 2bb/100? Either way; 2bb/100 is sustainable at these limits in zoom.

I've played a lot of zoom myself, not at 100nl...but still know the variance involved and even at lower limits, the variance is still very high. I've had 20k+ break even stretches and I'd expect more and my hand sample isn't exactly huge, like 100k at zoom.


You certainly shouldn't just expect to win playing donks over 10k hand samples all the time, it's just not going to happen even for the best.

Post some hands, not coolers obviously as for the most part they avoidable. Post hands which are marginal or whatever and you'll probably find you have a ton of leaks you're not even aware of.
 
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CrushingSouls

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I am surprised because I was a winning player on 400nl rush a few years ago. I have developed my fast poker game over 60k hands on rush and use the same strategy. The difference is there were less tight players. Unless you are a winning player on zoom you cant really defend it. Think about it, if the majority of players are playing tight how can you have an edge over them without a solid read? This is why I conclude that you need to play at least 1/2 zoom to earn a good return. Being breakeven doesnt count. Until I hear someone is crushing 100nl zoom or lower this is the truth.

Nobody likes to play nits.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Poker is a completely different game from a few years ago. The games are a lot tougher now and I wouldn't be surprised if 100nl zoom is more difficult than 400nl rush was back then.

You can exploit nits for being nits, in fact..if you're playing nits..you can just steal every time and when you do get action, you should play your strongest hands only or set mine and let them pay you off with their AA.

You also stated in your first post that it was about "the amount of donks there are" and how are you losing to those, not nits so which one is it? If anything, you want nits in your game if you can just play vs the donks. Just target the donks and take their money instead if you can't beat abc nits?
 
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Weren't you the guy who was winning like 37bb/100 and thought you were some kind of poker superhero? Variance evening itself out imo.

Sure zoom is different but you can exploit nits. Say someone has a f3b of 90%.. we should be changing our 3Bet range to include more bluff hands than value hands and should probably be calling ip with our higher equity range.

Also I don't think you understand that a good sample isn't like 60k hands. You need hundreds of thousands or millions even to get a better idea of a win rate. You could've just ran hot in about 10k of those 60k hands then just broke even the rest of the time but you're win rate would still look sick.

How many tables do you run and are you using a tracker? I'll post an example of when I ran really hot for about 10k hands and did the math for how likely it was my win rate or or probability of loss after a certain number of hands
 
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acky100

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Plenty of people are beating zoom for good win rates, everything ram said is true. Games are tough, you're thinking you're better than you are, you seem to be fascinated with retarded sample sizes, a lot of people can play 11k hands a day at zoom, nits and donks arent your problem, move down!
 
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CrushingSouls

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Ok maybe my zoom game isnt as good as I thought.
What zoom limit do you play ramdeebam?
 
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DunningKruger

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No money in Zoom poker. Everyone's solid.

OP I think I know who you are btw.

You can try Afterburner on Rush I guess since it's softer than Zoom these days (the opposite was true a few years ago). But yeah these games aren't exactly unbeatable. I don't exactly have a lot of Zoom volume this year but I'm beating the **** out of 100NL and 200NL Rush (400 hardly runs now) over a large sample. I don't need to explain how to adjust to an army of nits 'cause I'm sure you already know that stuff. The time of day you're grinding is a significant factor also. Anyway keep the faith man. If the donks and nits continue to rock you then yeah I would have to agree with the others and suggest moving down so that you can see how you do there.
 
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CrushingSouls

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Lol I doubt you know who I am this is not my username on ftp or pstars. Wow I didnt know rush was running never checked. I will say though off topic a bit that daily rush tourny that use to run what the best tournament. $2 multientry rebuy 10k guaranteed with usually 3k runners. Made final table twice but sadly knocked out in 10th both times. 1st was usually 5k. Theyve reduced the guaranted prize pool last time I checked and only gets around 1k runners.
Maybe il try a lower limit in the future.
 
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DunningKruger

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Nevermind the I think I know who you are thing. I read some of your other CC posts and there's no way you're him unless this is all some massive level. My bad on that.

The rush mtts were huge fish magnets back in the day but I don't play them anymore so I can't comment on them in regard to prize structure or w/e.
 
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CrushingSouls

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They were amazing. That and 400nl rush helped me build a 10k roll from $200 in two weeks literally the day before black friday. As the dynamic of the tables completely changed after that added with playing way above my bankroll on tilt there was not a happy ending. My dumbest decision was deciding to play 2000NL headsup, so if that was you enjoy a free $2k lol. I would like to think im not a stupid fish anymore but who knows ..that was the 4th time and hopefully the last that I destroy a large roll.
 
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Dom1

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Why don't you try moving down to 25nl,play at least 50,000 hands and see how you get on
 
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CrushingSouls

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Maybe in the future Dom1 don't have much time to play at the moment and I'm enjoying HU play more. Thanks for the advice I'll take it on.
 
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