Zoom 5 NL full seems odd

E

enesem

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So, I am playing some different tables in order to try a few things out, but I have to say, Zoom 5NL full is giving me a beating. (6 max is fine).

Every top hand I go with gets crushed. My current stats from opening hands (Figures in GBP)

AA: Down 4.54
AKs - Down 1.33
AQs - Down 2.37
AKo - Down 2.08
KK - Up 0.94
KQs - Down 2.59
AQo - Down 5.08
KQo - Down 3.61
QQ - Down 1.78

So, I am trying to play this table type extremely tight, and really trying to be disciplined with big hands. However, I am getting crushed nearly every time.

Example:
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 53.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
SB: 144.4 BB (VPIP: 4.17, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BB: 59.6 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
Hero (UTG): 42.6 BB
UTG+1: 66.6 BB (VPIP: 11.63, PFR: 6.98, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 43)
UTG+2: 131.8 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
MP: 114.6 BB (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 8.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP+1: 146.8 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)
CO: 165.4 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:club: A:heart:

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 4 players) J:spade: 3:spade: 6:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets 39.6 BB and is all-in, CO calls 39.6 BB, fold, fold

Turn: (92.2 BB, 2 players) 5:heart:

River: (92.2 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:

Hero shows A:club: A:heart: (Two Pair, Aces and Jacks) (Pre 85%, Flop 77%, Turn 89%)
CO shows J:heart: Q:spade: (Three of a Kind, Jacks) (Pre 15%, Flop 23%, Turn 11%)
CO wins 88.4 BB

Most of my lost hands are odds favourites to win.

I am down 35 GBP over 3500 hands. My method is to buy in with $ 3 dollars instead of 5, then play till I have $4 (profit of 1$), then I leave the table and rejoin. This is minimising my losses.

I am playing my opening hands using a starting hands chart, and trying to follow a strategy of stealing, raising and reraising, as part of a learning path. Using exactly the same methiod have shown good results on Zoom 5 NL 6-max and 5 NL (euro) tables where I have been able to make good inroads into my losses.

Statistically I would have expected it to be more balanced, and for sure I would not have expected all my top hands to be getting crushed as a matter of routine. Bad beats I am learning to take, but this is nearly every buy in - I am losing to much poorer hands.

I suppose I could just avoid this game type, however I would love to be able to make back some of the losses back as part of the learning experience.

I was wondering if anyone else had similar thoughts.

Another one, in case you were wondering...
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 91 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
SB: 40.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 106 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG+1: 259.4 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG+2: 161.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP: 245.8 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (MP+1): 100.4 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q:diamond: Q:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.4 BB, 3 players) A:club: J:diamond: 8:diamond:
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets 4 BB, fold, Hero calls 4 BB

Turn: (17.4 BB, 2 players) A:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

River: (31.4 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

Hero shows Q:diamond: Q:spade: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 81%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
BTN shows 9:spade: 9:club: (Full House, Nines full of Aces) (Pre 19%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BTN wins 58.8 BB


My blog of the learning journey:

http://i15518.wix.com/fishtopro
 
M

matiusaa

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I also used to play zoom but 2NL and I figured out that those hands like AJ-AQ and even AK are not profitable to play in the long run. Zoom is plenty of regulars who only play pocket pairs to set mine you. How many times has your TpTk lost to a set? I'm pretty sure that a lot of times. Also, you play against random oppponents and you don't know how they play, and that is more difficult when you have to take important decitions.
This is why I quitted zoom. I'm doing better in regular tables.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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From that hand it seems like you play your pocket aces in a way you are not going to get paid off on often. When you open shove the flop what are you expecting? Your opponent isn't going to have a piece of the board enough to make that a profitable move with your aces. You got lucky that this guy made a somewhat poor call with TPGK and got unlucky that he sucked out. Try and play in a way to where you get more value from your aces and big hands in general.
 
E

enesem

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From that hand it seems like you play your pocket aces in a way you are not going to get paid off on often. When you open shove the flop what are you expecting? Your opponent isn't going to have a piece of the board enough to make that a profitable move with your aces. You got lucky that this guy made a somewhat poor call with TPGK and got unlucky that he sucked out. Try and play in a way to where you get more value from your aces and big hands in general.

Thanks for the help. Any tips on how to open with big hands, and differences between zoom and normal?
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Thanks for the help. Any tips on how to open with big hands, and differences between zoom and normal?

Open AA the same way you open K10 preflop. The way you play it postflop is situational, but open shoving 3x pot is not going to get you paid off often. I do not have much exp with zoom so I can not, sorry.
 
E

enesem

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Thanks for the advice, it has really helped.

This thread is full of really useful insights:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/beating-micro-stakes-zoom-poker-stars-209029/

I have changed my strategy and now:
1) open my AA / KK with 8xbb to avoid 3xbb limpers and pot miners, and I have had callers who I have beat post flop.
2) not playing suited connectors unless late, and I drop from the flop if nothing matches. I am also VERY wary of AQ
3) I am very aware of set mining, and always trying think of possible pairs pre flop and how they match the board.
4) 3xbb to see the flop with a pair is pretty cheap considering the sets that can fall. Everyone else does it, but I have been able to catch quite a few hands playing TPTK, turning a leak I was having exploited to a strategy I can use.
5) avoiding bluffing unless the board improves my way, but use this sparingly (still learning so don't want to get reamed trying to triple barrel...)

So, with this in mind, I ran 254 hands this morning for a 62.36 BB/100 profit, and the game is much less intimidating.

Many thanks to you all for your comments, it has really helped.

NM
 
Fknife

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I would encourage you to use a HUD while playing ZOOM and abuse opponents' stats such as: Fold to 3bet, Fold to cbet, Fold to turn cbet, Attempt to Steal.

Although I switched from FR to 6max some time ago I feel like open-raising from BTN to steal blinds (opponents' Fold to BTN open stat!) is worth doing. You wont make a large profit from it but it compensates for the times you have to fold trash hands from the blinds.

Suited connectors (and pairs) are profitable from late position in multiway pots with deep stacked opponents.

Tighten your calling range against EP openers (reverse implied odds hands).

Dont go broke with TPTK against deep stackers.

Keep an eye on opponents' VPIP (opening/calling ranges) and analyse board texture to figure out if you are ahead.

Good luck!
 
E

enesem

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+1 on the HUD.

I usually play MAC but have switched to laptop so I can use the HUD and it makes a huge difference. Syncing the databases worked too, so I have the same stats on both devices.

But, yes, using the HUD is a definite must.

NM
 
E

enesem

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Well, I had another stab this afternoon, and the bad beats continue -

I have adapted my technique and I am playing better, not falling to trips so much, but when I have good hands I am still losing full stacks, all in twice where there was only one or two possible cards in the whole deck that could have saved the villain.

Yet, they still call, and I lost both hands. It's very strange, I don't like this format at all.

I am in no way implying it's rigged, it's just much more of a risk because people make wild calls with nothing and do seem to get the one card they need, so suck outs seem to be very common. I have made it my aim to build back to break even on each game type, with some success, however 5NL zoom full is just a lottery (that I am losing...)
 
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H

haihai

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The two hands you posted in OP the villains didn't exactly have nothing...

In micro stakes zoom, a lot of players (especially inexperienced ones) act on impulse a lot since stakes are so low and you have so little time to act so anytime they hit any part of the board they usually call you down, which is basically the case for the hands you've posted...
 
E

enesem

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Yeah, not complaining !

I am trying to improve, so obviously I am leaking somewhere on these tables, so I am going to avoid them for a while so I can tighten up on the normal tables.

It's interesting though....
 
Fknife

Fknife

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Zoom Poker is generally "hard" and many people claim that it is really hard to keep a constant winning rate. Especially on FR people are tight as *****, thats why I switched to 6max.

And btw, I played some FR today and lost 2 times in "full-house over full-house" and one time in "4 of a kind over set" situation (on the flop I had a higher set, but the villain caught the last remaining card in a deck to make 4 of a kind... AND WHERE??? Of course on pokerstars famous River... :( ). So you are not alone with those bad beats :)
 
gtothec

gtothec

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does anyone else here think that to play zoom is a bit like playing omaha where the relative hand values are almost totally different to nlhe?
it likes you should be only be looking to play sets +
 
IPlay

IPlay

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does anyone else here think that to play zoom is a bit like playing omaha where the relative hand values are almost totally different to nlhe?
it likes you should be only be looking to play sets +

On FR zoom 5/9 players are probably set mining/playing AJs+
 
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