Why is donk betting so bad?

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Mamushi

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As the title states; Why is donk betting so bad?

I mean, can't we all think of situtations where it is the right thing to do?
 
BelgoSuisse

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It's not bad per se. It can be very bad or very good. It depends.

Calling oop is pretty bad in most cases, though. And you need to do that to get a chance to donk bet.
 
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The Muppetteer

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Can you define donk betting at all?

The Muppetteer
 
BelgoSuisse

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Betting out of position when you were not the preflop raiser.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think its usually seen as bad because for it to happen, someone in late position has to 3bet preflop, which indicates a high Pair or AK type hand.

Then on the flop, the person in early position feels that they are c-betting so they donk bet.

But the preflop action dictates that the person in late position most likely has a high over pair hand or TPTK so will in turn 3bet the flop.

So really donk betting the flop (when done as a c-bet) just over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive.

Against most players, a 3 bet in late position means they have the type of hand that will be good on most flops, so raising with the intention of pushing them off it is completely pointless... hence its a donk bet.

There are situations where it works, but before you can understand them you must first understand why its usually a bad thing to do.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I think its usually seen as bad because for it to happen, someone in late position has to 3bet preflop

no it does not.

preflop: everybody folds, BTN open raises, SB folds, BB calls.
flop: BB donk bets.

This is by far the most common donk betting scenario.
 
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no it does not.

preflop: everybody folds, BTN open raises, SB folds, BB calls.
flop: BB donk bets.

This is by far the most common donk betting scenario.

I agree with you Belgosussie, this is the most common donk bet scenario.
I think the reason they do this is that it will often work. It all depends on who you are playing. I will donk bet if it i hit the flop hard and hope the raiser thinks i am donk betting and plays back at me.
 
zachvac

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It's not bad at all. It is kinda bad in the way it is most used, which is hmm I have a medium hand I'll see where I'm at and donk small and fold to a raise. But if you balance or just use it to exploit what people think it means, it's definitely a solid part of an overall strategy. I know HU players use it a lot and against many players I think calling preflop and mixing donks and check-raises as bluffs along with value bets can be a good way to mix it up instead of just 3-betting or folding 100% of the time.
 
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At low limits where EVERYONE c-bets, donk betting is not a good strategy if you hit the flop, either check-call-bet turn or check-raise.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I guess its only bad for the losers.But it can ruin a game for everyone else if ya have a nut getting lucky and taking everyone out with stupid cards.

Please read thread before posting. You clearly don't know what "donk betting" means.
 
Zorba

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He is an expert just like you are an amateur, it is beyond his control, but the hit and run post he made is within his control.
 
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Maybe this is too simplified or ion correct but I thought donk betting was calling big bets on draws hoping to get lucky.

The Muppetteer
 
cardplayer52

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Maybe this is too simplified or ion correct but I thought donk betting was calling big bets on draws hoping to get lucky.

The Muppetteer
no a "donk bet" and "stop and go" are the same if that helps. basically you call a raise OOP then bet into the raiser of the flop. this can be a good bet in 2 spots i can think of. 1. you were set mining and hit your set on a board full of draws. 2. you called a raise in the blinds from a probably steal and you donk the flop as opposed to 3betting preflop. i'm sure there are other times this is a good move but cant think of any off hand.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Guys you should know that without the donks, The pros wont exist at all !! So I say Respect the donks and push them to the limit :)

Another clueless post from someone who did not read the thread and therefore has no clue what donk betting means. Thanks for sharing.
 
DawgBones

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no it does not.

preflop: everybody folds, BTN open raises, SB folds, BB calls.
flop: BB donk bets.

This is by far the most common donk betting scenario.

Say BB has mid pair and calls to see flop and hits a set or better. What is proper play, check raise, check call? Lots of supposes out there cause you would need more info on BTN and situation...i.e. tourney or ring, stack sizes, etc. But this is a general question.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Say BB has mid pair and calls to see flop and hits a set or better. What is proper play, check raise, check call? Lots of supposes out there cause you would need more info on BTN and situation...i.e. tourney or ring, stack sizes, etc. But this is a general question.

It depends on villain. How wide he opens, how often he cbets, ... Typically, donk betting looks a bit weaker than check-raising, so it's better than c/r if you think villain's range has a lot of medium hand strength hands that he would be inclined to pot-control.

Donk betting is not different from any other type of betting. You want to bet the top of your range for value and the bottom of your range as bluff provided you can assume you'll have some fold equity. And you don't want to bet the middle of your range since you can catch villain's bluffs with it. That's what a lot of fishes do incorrectly. They'll donk the flop because they have second pair and want to know where they stand. And for some strange reason they expect their opponent to respond truthfully... :eek:
 
BelgoSuisse

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It seems when someone loses they always say that, to me a donk is someone in a freeroll who goes in every hand kamikaze style and hopes to win and they seem to be lucky a lot but usually get killed off eventually.

And yet another clueless post from someone who did not read the thread and therefore has no clue what donk betting means. Isn't that great?
 
Divebitch

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It's not bad per se. It can be very bad or very good. It depends.

Calling oop is pretty bad in most cases, though. And you need to do that to get a chance to donk bet.

Betting out of position when you were not the preflop raiser.

preflop: everybody folds, BTN open raises, SB folds, BB calls.
flop: BB donk bets.

This is by far the most common donk betting scenario.

Okay, you're leaving something out (or I am not understanding something). Is this a planned move, irrespective of the actual cards? Let's say the BB has KK. Should he fold? Should he reraise? Let's say he calls and the flop come J73, should he not bet?

But Like Zack says, seems like it can be useful to know where you stand. Let's say you have AT suited, hit middle pair and a nut flush draw. If you don't raise, what are the chances the original better will check? You might get him to fold with any smallish - medium bet post-flop if he missed. No? :confused: Sometimes I think that checking in these situations invites the original raiser to come back with a huge bet (bluff).
 
BelgoSuisse

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But Like Zack says, seems like it can be useful to know where you stand.

Reread zach's post. He says the exact opposite. He says donk betting can be good, but that it's really bad when the intend is to know where you stand.

Betting hands of medium strenght to know where you stand is horrible, especially oop. You fold out any hand that you beat and give money to any hand that beats you. Which is the exact opposite of the good reasons for betting (folding better hands and getting value from weaker ones)

Let's say you have AT suited, hit middle pair and a nut flush draw.

middle pair + over + nut flush draws is a monster and you can either donk or check-raise, in both cases with the intention to get all the money in on the flop if villain raises.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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next person to post in this thread without clearly having at least vaguely understood the topic and not just having seen the word "donk" and taken it as a license to post garbage gets banned for a week.

(i.e. i've had to clean this thread up and i don't like having to do work)
 
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no a "donk bet" and "stop and go" are the same if that helps. basically you call a raise OOP then bet into the raiser of the flop. this can be a good bet in 2 spots i can think of. 1. you were set mining and hit your set on a board full of draws. 2. you called a raise in the blinds from a probably steal and you donk the flop as opposed to 3betting preflop. i'm sure there are other times this is a good move but cant think of any off hand.

I may stand corrected here.. but my understanding is that a DONK BET and a STOP and GO are two diff things.

Donk Bet like it's said up there is betting into the initial raisor out of position.

A STOP and GO is calling a preflop raise with the intention of pushing post flop if the board is right usually as SB or BB when either raises...

The big diff is the latter, you have the intent of pushing before you called preflop but donk betting is well.. dumb (to answer the question above) because you know most likely the initial aggressor is going to raise over you. On times that can be a smart move is... you know your opponent has weak holdings coz he is a LAG and you're trying to scare him off the pot. You've actually value betting coz you've hit the nuts or hit the flop hard...

Rule of thumb is donk bets are only good for inducing bets IMHO.
 
Divebitch

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Reread zach's post. He says the exact opposite. He says donk betting can be good, but that it's really bad when the intend is to know where you stand.


middle pair + over + nut flush draws is a monster and you can either donk or check-raise, in both cases with the intention to get all the money in on the flop if villain raises.

Yep, my bad on the first part. Second part, I'd be a little nervous about this, assuming a good possibility he hit the top pair. But I guess 9 (suit) + 2 (10s) + 3 (aces) = 14 x 2 = 28 outs - not bad. Thanks for the explanations.
 
cardplayer52

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there were a couple questions on when to "donk" bet. if i flop a set i'm most likely to "donk" bet. when i flop a set i want to protect my hand on wet boards. if deep stacked i find a "donk" bet is the best way to get all in by the river. especially if the villian is capable of checking a made hand behind for pot control. what i've been doing lately is "donk" betting w/a smallish bet making it look like a "blocking" bet trying to name my price on a draw heavy board. i'm finding if the OR has a made hand they got no problem raising then calling a big 3bet by my on the flop. if however i flop a set and the board is dry and the active stacks are smaller i may check/call the flop. but for the most pard i'm leading out w/ a strong made hand.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Yep, my bad on the first part. Second part, I'd be a little nervous about this, assuming a good possibility he hit the top pair.

you're actually doing good against top pair. For instance,

Board: Ks Td 6s
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.313% 51.31% 00.00% 508 0.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 48.687% 48.69% 00.00% 482 0.00 { KhQh }

And a lot of people will actually fold top pair against a lot of aggression, so if you add fold equity, getting it all-in on flop with a pair + over + nut flush draws is pretty standard.
 
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