Why do people contemplate folding a flush with only 3 suited cards on the board?

I have been watching alot of high stakes poker on youtube and one thing I just dont understand. Why do players contemplate and sometimes even fold a "weak" flush when there are only 3 suited cards on the board? And yes ofcourse I am talking about a scenario where the board is not paired.......

Why am I so surprised? Because I dont even remember the last time that I lost with a "weak" flush. Yes it has happened to me a very few times but its so rare that I almost consider a flush as nuts if the board isnt paired.

Then there is another problem. When 2 people really do make a flush and someone folds half the time its actually the better flush that folds which makes the whole thing absolutely pointless. To me it really seems like very unprofitable play. For sure if you suspect your opponent also has flush you may just call and not raise but surely you cant fold.

Yes it does happen more often that I see someone else also had suited cards of the same suit but the flush just doesnt happen in those cases it seems.

I have played lots and lots of poker so surely its not that I have been very lucky with this or something?

Can you post some videos? I watch a lot of high stakes randomly on youtube and I don't recall seeing a lot.

But most of the times, especially if the players are more amateurish players sitting with big time pros, they might fold on national TV thinking they just made a great laydown. Knowing that you're gonna be on TV affects players' decisions, especially the more amteurish ones.

Thinker_145 said:

I have been watching alot of high stakes poker on youtube and one thing I just dont understand. Why do players contemplate and sometimes even fold a "weak" flush when there are only 3 suited cards on the board? And yes ofcourse I am talking about a scenario where the board is not paired.......

Why am I so surprised? Because I dont even remember the last time that I lost with a "weak" flush. Yes it has happened to me a very few times but its so rare that I almost consider a flush as nuts if the board isnt paired.

Then there is another problem. When 2 people really do make a flush and someone folds half the time its actually the better flush that folds which makes the whole thing absolutely pointless. To me it really seems like very unprofitable play. For sure if you suspect your opponent also has flush you may just call and not raise but surely you cant fold.

Yes it does happen more often that I see someone else also had suited cards of the same suit but the flush just doesnt happen in those cases it seems.

I have played lots and lots of poker so surely its not that I have been very lucky with this or something?

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Professionals contemplate folding a small flush with three suited cards on the board because they suspect they're beaten. It's that simple.

Successful pros generally have good memories and good reads on their opponents. As a result, they are much more likely to realize when they've flopped a flush and are beaten than your average players are.

Amateur and recreational players most often won't even consider folding a made flush with no possible full house --- which is part of what separates them from the pros.

-HooDooKoo

I see 2 players holding pocket flush most days on Carbon freerolls - and those are only the ones that show. That seems inconstant with a simulation

http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

2c5c8c9dAd board, the low flush 6c3c wins 97% against random hands [only losing to higher flush] ... so for every 35 low flushes, there should be a higher flush.

It seems to happen more often, but who knows about those freerolls. I just went all in, 1st round with KK, called by J7o and flop is 77Q

KK had 86% equity compared to 97% equity of a low flush, for what that's worth

haihai said:

Can you post some videos? I watch a lot of high stakes randomly on youtube and I don't recall seeing a lot.

But most of the times, especially if the players are more amateurish players sitting with big time pros, they might fold on national TV thinking they just made a great laydown. Knowing that you're gonna be on TV affects players' decisions, especially the more amteurish ones.

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Cant find the videos but I found the threads discussing the 2 hands that I was talking about.

http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/hsp-arguement-doyle-laying-down-better-flush-gold-108006/

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/8874-negreanu-folds-the-winner-on-high-stakes-poker

HooDooKoo said:

Professionals contemplate folding a small flush with three suited cards on the board because they suspect they're beaten. It's that simple.

Successful pros generally have good memories and good reads on their opponents. As a result, they are much more likely to realize when they've flopped a flush and are beaten than your average players are.

Amateur and recreational players most often won't even consider folding a made flush with no possible full house --- which is part of what separates them from the pros.

-HooDooKoo

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Nah the big laydowns of poker "pros" are not some special ability because they make bad laydowns just as much as good laydowns which anyone can do.

There are other things which separate the really good poker players from the average ones but folding really big hands is not one of them.

Thinker_145 said:

I have been watching alot of high stakes poker on youtube and one thing I just dont understand. Why do players contemplate and sometimes even fold a "weak" flush when there are only 3 suited cards on the board? And yes ofcourse I am talking about a scenario where the board is not paired.......

Why am I so surprised? Because I dont even remember the last time that I lost with a "weak" flush. Yes it has happened to me a very few times but its so rare that I almost consider a flush as nuts if the board isnt paired.

Then there is another problem. When 2 people really do make a flush and someone folds half the time its actually the better flush that folds which makes the whole thing absolutely pointless. To me it really seems like very unprofitable play. For sure if you suspect your opponent also has flush you may just call and not raise but surely you cant fold.

Yes it does happen more often that I see someone else also had suited cards of the same suit but the flush just doesnt happen in those cases it seems.

I have played lots and lots of poker so surely its not that I have been very lucky with this or something?

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it shouldnt matter what someone's hand is as much as what there and villains range is.

Example if im on the river and someone shoves a reasonable size into the pot and I'm very confident that it's highly unlikely he has anything better then J high because of board texture and dynamics I can profitably call if my assumptions are right. The exact same can happen on the other side where someone can be so nitty that folding the second nuts is right given your reads

Don't worry so much about the absolute value of the hand and focus a lot more on the relative hand strength given the board and then his (if you don't know his use your) range of hands you get there with

Getting to concerned with absolute hand strength leads to calling in spots where your never good and sometimes folding when you could call and be mildy profitable. It is not just a high stakes thing either sometimes low stakes people are so unaware of if their line is consistent with what they are trying to rep that it becomes very clear when they are polarized

Thinker_145 said:

Nah the big laydowns of poker "pros" are not some special ability because they make bad laydowns just as much as good laydowns which anyone can do.

There are other things which separate the really good poker players from the average ones but folding really big hands is not one of them.

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Ummm, wrong. Just dead wrong.

Good try.

-HooDooKoo

HooDooKoo said:

Professionals contemplate folding a small flush with three suited cards on the board because they suspect they're beaten. It's that simple.

Successful pros generally have good memories and good reads on their opponents. As a result, they are much more likely to realize when they've flopped a flush and are beaten than your average players are.

Amateur and recreational players most often won't even consider folding a made flush with no possible full house --- which is part of what separates them from the pros.

-HooDooKoo

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your basically right but it's not exactly the train of thought saying "im beaten" or "not" it's still always going to be rooting back to probability just because you call and get shown a better flush doesn't inheritly mean the call was wrong per say, there still should almost always be a small chance of being wrong unless you have a nut vs second nut cooler which is just way too rare to worry about too much

I think this is very important to harp on thou because this becomes much more important in more marginal spots then what OP was concerned about. Calling down with say A high or worse can fall into this too and it boils down to the same logic and mechanics of any call/ raise/ or fold but it is a point a lot of people forget and auto pilot on

sorry if that seemed like i was harping cant help it

HooDooKoo said:

Ummm, wrong. Just dead wrong.

Good try.

-HooDooKoo

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Poker is not nuclear science, the best poker player is the one who suffers least from tilt and has endless patience and has the stamina to concentrate for hours.

Reading ability is a massively over rated thing, its ultimately a game of guessing and there is nothing magical one can do against a good poker player.

The reason they think about it is because they have played enough poker over the years that seeing a flush over a flush isn't that uncommon for them, so basically they are trying to decide if that is what they have or not, it does happen more than you think I had a flush over flush just yesterday I got paid off though

Thinker_145 said:

Poker is not nuclear science, the best poker player is the one who suffers least from tilt and has endless patience and has the stamina to concentrate for hours.

Reading ability is a massively over rated thing, its ultimately a game of guessing and there is nothing magical one can do against a good poker player.

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Thanks for stopping by to tell us that good poker players aren't magical. I thought they couldn't be beaten because of their hocus pocus skills.

I feel much better now.

-HooDooKoo

P.S. Are you a pro? If not, I'm not sure you're qualified to explain what differentiates pros from the rest of the world.

rumsey182 said:

it shouldnt matter what someone's hand is as much as what there and villains range is.

Example if im on the river and someone shoves a reasonable size into the pot and I'm very confident that it's highly unlikely he has anything better then J high because of board texture and dynamics I can profitably call if my assumptions are right. The exact same can happen on the other side where someone can be so nitty that folding the second nuts is right given your reads

Don't worry so much about the absolute value of the hand and focus a lot more on the relative hand strength given the board and then his (if you don't know his use your) range of hands you get there with

Getting to concerned with absolute hand strength leads to calling in spots where your never good and sometimes folding when you could call and be mildy profitable. It is not just a high stakes thing either sometimes low stakes people are so unaware of if their line is consistent with what they are trying to rep that it becomes very clear when they are polarized

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Yes you are right the board texture matters alot, I dont simply play to the strength of my hand as I learned thats just not the way to play poker successfully.

Thinker_145 said:

Yes you are right the board texture matters alot, I dont simply play to the strength of my hand as I learned thats just not the way to play poker successfully.

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Ummm, board texture doesn't matter at all in a flush vs. flush situation. But thanks for your tremendously insightful input.

-HooDooKoo

HooDooKoo said:

Thanks for stopping by to tell us that good poker players aren't magical. I thought they couldnt't be beaten because of their hocus pocus skills.

I feel much better now.

-HooDooKoo

P.S. Are you a pro? If not, I'm not sure you're qualified to explain what differentiates pros from the rest of the world.

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Who cant be beaten?

So you only consider yourself qualified to have an opinion on something that you yourself are? I guess that leaves you with very little to have opinions on.

You might wanna watch the season 7 of high stakes poker, some rich amateur owned the pros and walked away with $300000 profit. Bu bu how can the pros lose? I thought you couldnt beat them.

HooDooKoo said:

Ummm, board texture doesn't matter at all in a flush vs. flush situation. But thanks for your tremendously insightful input.

-HooDooKoo

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Whats the problem dude? His post wasnt talking about a flush vs flush situation he was talking generally. Your contributions are really not needed in this thread as you just seem like some pissed off guy who needs a break no offence.

Thinker_145 said:

Whats the problem dude? His post wasnt talking about a flush vs flush situation he was talking generally. Your contributions are really not needed in this thread as you just seem like some pissed off guy who needs a break no offence.

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I don't have any issue with Rumsey, Thinker. His contribution to this thread was fine. It's your responses that have been useless, and all my recent comments have been directed at you, not at Rumsey.

Your post was absolutely about people folding small made flushes on unpaired boards, which implies that they believe their opponents have a higher flush. In those cases, which is the subject of this thread, board texture is irrelevant.

The best players can fold their made flushes there IF they have a good enough read on their opponent that they "know" their opponent won't represent the made flush without having it. Most amateur and recreational players NEVER make that fold. But the key to this situation is having a reliable read on one's opponent. Not a mystical, clairvoyant read, but enough history with them to "know" that your opponent won't bluff at the made flush. If you have enough history with your opponent to allow you to make that read, you can get away from a small flush. If not, you're almost certain to lose your stack.

I don't see how that feedback isn't constructive. Sorry.

-HooDooKoo

HooDooKoo said:

His post was absolutely about people folding small made flushes on unpaired boards, which implies that they believe their opponents have a higher flush. In those cases, which is the subject of this thread, board texture is irrelevant.

The best players can fold their made flushes there IF they have a good enough read on their opponent that they know their opponent won't represent the made flush without having it. Most amateur and recreational players NEVER make that fold. But the key to this situation is having a read on one's opponent. Not a mystical, clairvoyant read, but enough history to know that your opponent won't bluff at the made flush. If you have enough history with your opponent to allow you to make that read, you can get away from a small flush. If not, you're almost certain to lose your stack.

That's just the way it goes.

-HooDooKoo

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Seems like I misread his post sorry.

Ya this I can agree with. Only way to get away with a small flush is if you have a long history with the opponent. But as I have seen in high stakes poker those folds are often the better flush as I showed in my 2 examples.

Btw who do you consider an amateur player? Someone who plays low stakes or someone who doesnt play alot of poker?

I may not be a high stakes player but I have played alot of poker to know which situations bring trouble and which are profitable in the long run.

I am sorry if I was rude to you and dont think I think of myself as a know it all or something. I have learned a great deal about poker in the last few months and continue to do so.

Thinker_145 said:

Seems like I misread his post sorry.

Ya this I can agree with. Only way to get away with a small flush is if you have a long history with the opponent. But as I have seen in high stakes poker those folds are often the better flush as I showed in my 2 examples.

Btw who do you consider an amateur player? Someone who plays low stakes or someone who doesnt play alot of poker?

I may not be a high stakes player but I have played alot of poker to know which situations bring trouble and which are profitable in the long run.

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Sure, if neither player has the nut flush (say T-high and Q-high), then it's possible that the better flush will fold if the other player represents enough strength. Like you indicated previously, pros sometimes make bad folds --- just not as often as the rest of us (or as often as they make good folds).

I would say that anyone that isn't playing for a living isn't a pro, even if they've been a profitable amateur. I have played many millions of hands online and I'm a profitable amateur. I do not consider myself a pro, though, because I have never played for a living. That's my definition, anyway.

-HooDooKoo

Another here the very first hand.....


The guy folds a 6 high flush because he thinks he has the worse flush but the other player infact only had a straight. Can you guys post some videos of a good fold of a small flush?

Thinker_145 said:

I am sorry if I was rude to you and dont think I think of myself as a know it all or something. I have learned a great deal about poker in the last few months and continue to do so.

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No need to apologize. I just didn't (and don't) understand your statements about pro's reading ability and ability to make "big" laydowns. Those two things are what separate the pros from profitable amateurs --- at least in live play. I never mentioned anything mystical about the aforementioned reading ability. But good players mentally catalog all the plays made by their opponents, which gives them a better shot at deducing what their opponents are holding than most of the rest of us have.

Good luck.

-HooDooKoo

Ok, what if you don't know the "poker player"? You don't know jack about 90% of the people you play with most of the time, so it can't be assumed you "know" his range. Poker hardly ever presents the same situations, with the same players, with the same hands. Millions of scenarios are played out, ending up with the same ole stuff: if, but, might have, should have, E=Mc4 and on and on. Most of the best players swear by math, most of the donks swear by play anything, and the middle of the road play what they think are good cards. Yea, iv'e seen pros lay down the higher flush, and most of the time they are not holding the A, that magical card that cinches any flush. So, after playing millions of hands, and seeing everything there is to see, they may use their magical powers to let the hand go, neither gaining, but more importantly, not losing a bunch of chips. Who hasn't folded a winner before? So what difference does it make how big a hand you threw? If you can't fold a winner once in awhile, you are doomed to stay in the rookie ranks. What you are seeing is only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of hands played by the high stakes poker group, to them a weak flush is the same as a pair of deuces. And that's why they can play high stakes, and we can't. [well. most of the 'we's' anyway]

I just lost my made flush. My 27s was no match to the 39s. Opponent kept it cheap, so I called. If opponent goes in big, I would consider folding my weak flush. Prefer to save my big stack for better odds.

It deppends on the player. I wouldn't fold a weak flush with 3 suited cards but if a guy goes in big , I would think about it and probly fold.