Why am I losing overall with AK?

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thatgreekdude

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Was just checking my hand chart and realised i've lost just short of 600Bb with AKs and AKo combined with AKs losing me 487bbs, i'd figure these hands should be making me money not losing money, sample is quite small, only over 400 hands with AK so i'd assume this would even out the more hands i play? Maybe i just play AK terribly i'm not sure.
 
LgBassMan

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Can you really put a title of 'losing hand' on any set of cards?
It's all how to play them in the given situation. Even 7-2 isn't a losing hand.
Maybe you're over valuing AK?
A lot of players over value AK, I wrote about that yesterday that whenever certain people see AK it's their God given right to win that hand no matter what. It's okay to make a disciplined lay down, it really is.
 
RodneyC86

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It's a losing hand at 2NL because every fish puts you on AK when you raise. So going by the theory of poker since they will be reading you right when you do have AK every time they can never make a mistake when going up against you.

Fold pre most of the time except vs nits who never call with worse anyway and fold











Bad joke aside, yes AK is a 'winning hand' for most players, even the mildly losing ones.
 
IPlay

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I see the same thing with my AK hands on PT4. I think it stems from me playing AK aggressive preflop, I kind of play it like AA or KK to basically balance my range slightly. Not really needed at the micros but even beginners using a HUD can make decent folds against someone 3 betting pre with a 100 hand sample and 0% 3bet. It also is not a bad hand but when you miss the flop it can be tricky. Rodney also makes a great point and it seems like when I have AK everyone folds to the cbet when I make my hand and rarely fold when I miss.
 
IPlay

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I actually checked and I am a winner with those hands through 401 hands of both AKo and AKs but I am on a pretty big upswing with them according to my graph. When I had 270 hands played I was losing with those hands. It is for sure a high variance hand since(my graph confirms haha) it is only a drawing hand after all and if you get it in pre you are a slight dog to almost any other hand people are getting it in with.
 
RodneyC86

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I see the same thing with my AK hands on PT4. I think it stems from me playing AK aggressive preflop, I kind of play it like AA or KK to basically balance my range slightly. Not really needed at the micros but even beginners using a HUD can make decent folds against someone 3 betting pre with a 100 hand sample and 0% 3bet. It also is not a bad hand but when you miss the flop it can be tricky. Rodney also makes a great point and it seems like when I have AK everyone folds to the cbet when I make my hand and rarely fold when I miss.

Which by extension is why calling a flop shove from them with Tptk iffy at best. They make upsetting AK a sport. Once I got owned by 25o who called my 3bet OOP. As luck would have it, flop A22. Rest of story is obvious.
 
S3mper

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I'm subbing.. Looking for a more definitive answer as I would assume it should be but it is just Ace high..

I would say it's definitely a winning hand for tournaments where I spend most of my time.. I know I'm winning with AK live online no idea...

Some one with a high sample size please see this thread
 
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Who told you AK is a losing hand.It is one of the premium hands in poker if you cant win with AK then what hand you need to win a pot at table. It is a great hand in a hands up game since it has both the card thats why we raise so that only 2-3 players remain in the pot. If it hits the flop then it will have the biggest pair ace with the best kicker to go with it.
Other people on the table will also call with weak ace thinking that they have the best hand or thinking of making 2 pairs.These 2 are the best spot to make money.
 
RodneyC86

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Was just checking my hand chart and realised i've lost just short of 600Bb with AKs and AKo combined with AKs losing me 487bbs, i'd figure these hands should be making me money not losing money, sample is quite small, only over 400 hands with AK so i'd assume this would even out the more hands i play? Maybe i just play AK terribly i'm not sure.

Who told you AK is a losing hand.It is one of the premium hands in poker if you cant win with AK then what hand you need to win a pot at table. It is a great hand in a hands up game since it has both the card thats why we raise so that only 2-3 players remain in the pot. If it hits the flop then it will have the biggest pair ace with the best kicker to go with it.
Other people on the table will also call with weak ace thinking that they have the best hand or thinking of making 2 pairs.These 2 are the best spot to make money.

No shit Sherlock. No shit.

The key is not to overvalue Tptk vs various opponents types.
 
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thatgreekdude

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i don't know though i almost never get AK in pre- unless villain is loose or shortstacked, i might occasionally call a 4 bet if i have position but otherwise i'll just fold, i'm gunna go check through some hands.
 
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thatgreekdude

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yeah looking through a lot of shoving at flops with nut flush draw and overcards seems to have done me in, also floating a lot of dry boards for one or two streets with just ace high when villains have pairs in there range..
 
RodneyC86

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yeah looking through a lot of shoving at flops with nut flush draw and overcards seems to have done me in, also floating a lot of dry boards for one or two streets with just ace high when villains have pairs in there range..

I'm pretty certain calling 4bet with AK even in position is burning money. If you miss (70pct, most likely worse in view opponent has chance of having ak himself) and then he cbets. What are you gonna do?
 
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AK for me is a dangerous hand, without a good flop you can be in trouble.

It also depends on position, however it's key not to get too attached to the hand, I will most times go to the flop.

If I miss the flop, there would have to be a very good reason for me to invest anything more into the hand.

Depending on your skill level, I would advise you to consider AK as not a particularly good hand and play it very conservatively.

Once you improve your skill level, you can use more technique post flop, however that's usually where novice players (me included) get into trouble. You are easy to read looking for drawing hands, if your AK is suited, it's even more tempting.
 
rytciaq

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Not a very good hand to call shoves with, but a good hand overall. Many players seek their ace or a king after a flop that didn't hit A or K , or any possibilities of a straight or flush. AK is a good hand, but you need to know when to fold it. I personally like AK, since I'm not a fan of coinflips.
 
IPlay

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I'm pretty certain calling 4bet with AK even in position is burning money. If you miss (70pct, most likely worse in view opponent has chance of having ak himself) and then he cbets. What are you gonna do?

Would you agree it is kind of shove or fold in this spot against most villains?
 
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Would you agree it is kind of shove or fold in this spot against most villains?

If someone's shoving range pre-flop is AK, QQ+ then either calling or shoving with AK is fine. Shoving is better, since you also have some fold equity.

Since a lot of people have that as their shoving range, you can typically feel pretty comfortable in calling a shove or shoving with AK.

While it is a "coinflip" essentially in terms of equity, you also have enough money in the pot when the shoves happens to make it a +EV move.
 
RodneyC86

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Would you agree it is kind of shove or fold in this spot against most villains?

I always have issues trying to shove AK. It just feels like I'm running on a neutral EV treadmill and still get raked in the process. In theory if your opponent can even show the slightest hint of being able to 4bet ANYTHING beyond AK and QQ+, you can shove since your equity will be about 38% ish vs the default QQ+ AK range.

Adding just a couple 'junk' 4-bet light hands that would fold to shove such as A2s-A5s would mean they would already fold like 30% of the time already!

So I guess it boils down to whether I believe they are capable of 4betting light at all which is in all honesty at 5NL very difficult to gather sufficient data on a single player due to the massive player pool. I mostly just fold AK to 4bets unless I've seen them do tricky stuff with the 4bet. Don't like the variance train and I maintain this is not a major leak....given 5NL.
 
RodneyC86

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Oh I forgot to factor in the rake, which is also a bitch. Please discount rakes from the final pot before you start your calculation. It makes huge difference.
Going to war with AK too much is only profitable to one side, the cardroom.
 
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well as drawing AK always occurs differently, depending on the situation and stage of the game,cash or tournament, and what happens with AK, you can run into AA or a couple,and not to catch an ACE or a King so it's not always a good hand
 
Arjonius

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400 hands is a fairly small sample, but there's more to the picture than just whether you're winning or losing with AK. The standard for comparison isn't 0. It's the win rate you should have, which, for a decently +EV player is likely to be in the area of 100 to 150 bb/100. If we use 100bb, then losing 600bb is actually 700bb below expectation.

Sure, this can happen due to variance. But is it better to assume so or to look into the possibility that at least part of the fault for AK under-performing may be because you have room to improve how you play it?
 
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AK is a strong hand, if it is successful or not will all depend on the way you play.
 
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hffjd2000

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Online, AK is a strong hand.

Live, AK is just an ordinary hand.
 
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hffjd2000

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...bec Online = 180 degrees shift x Live.
 
akaRobbo

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I'm pretty certain calling 4bet with AK even in position is burning money. If you miss (70pct, most likely worse in view opponent has chance of having ak himself) and then he cbets. What are you gonna do?

I sometimes wonder whether its worth getting involved with AK to the point of 4bets and 5bets. Certainly at 10nl even most players 3-bet range is Ak, QQ KK and AA from my experience. So when are we ever favourite?

I'll always 3 bet Ak then fire a cbet and it usually takes down the pot. Or if I face a 3-bet I'll 4 bet then fold to 5 bet, and fire a cbet if my 4 bet is called. Even then I find myself in trouble often because players 3-bet range is so tight, what choice do I have though? Calling the 3-bet or Folding lol?

Yeah I agree, I find if you're not the aggressor with AK pre you're goin to have a tough time.
 
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