Why is A2-A5s considered superior to A6-A9s?

Thinker_145

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I see people suggest playing A2-A5s in more positions than A6-A9s and I just don't get it.

How many times are you really going to make a straight with A5? Even when you miraculously do it is never going to be the nut straight.

You are never going to flop top 2 pair on a board with no straight with the smaller Ax hands. So just like with the straight we will never be too comfortable with 2 pair.

So what's the value in A6-A9s? Well its exactly the fact that everyone seems to play the small Axs hands so several times we will get value with top pair. 2 pair hands are also going to be potentially more powerful.

So basically it comes down to better kicker vs bottom straight possibility and as far as I am concerned the former is going to matter so much more.

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Frozrbyte

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I wouldn't call it superior but it does give you more ways to hit the flop. With A2-A5s, you can get 2 pair, trips,nut flush and straight. With A6-A9 suited, it's just 2 pair, trips and a nut flush.

It all boils down to the mathematical aspect of the game. You can only make a pair or better 1/3 of the time and even lesser with 2 pair, trips, straights and flushes. So more often than not, your 2 pair or better will be good. If the board shows a 1 card straight like 4567 or 4578, you should keep the pot small or fold if betting gets out of hand. Same goes for any board texture that's not in your favor unless you have info on villain that proves otherwise.

I do however play any Axs in position
 
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anteupcowboy

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It is "superior" simply because the chance of hitting hitting the wheel is now a possibility since you're holding wheel cards.
 
Thinker_145

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It is "superior" simply because the chance of hitting hitting the wheel is now a possibility since you're holding wheel cards.
Ya but you got a weaker kicker and most of the times you will only have 1 pair. 2 pair hands are also significantly worse as I mentioned.
 
c9h13no3

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You win more money with straights than you do middle pair.
 
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gklcap

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Because you have a better chance of making a straight
 
demibar

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with A2 and A5 you can have straight and you have more chances to win than A6 OR A9
 
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joe777

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Your odd/percentage of winning is increasing.
 
Thinker_145

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You win more money with straights than you do middle pair.

Thats a bad comparison given the vastly different probabilities. A5 for example gets you into lots of cooler scenarios with worse straight and worse 2 pair. Not many cooler scenarios with A9.

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ivkeeeeee

ivkeeeeee

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because with A2 and A5 catch Stirling,bsc better a2 a5
 
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Thenextbigthing

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Cards 2345 help make the wheel straight a6 and above don't


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c9h13no3

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Not many cooler scenarios with A9.
Cuz A9 vs. AK never happens.... :rolleyes:

And yeah, straights happen less frequently. But this is no limit. We make WAY more with a straight than we do middle pair. Typically when middle pair goes to showdown, it's a money loser in no limit. When you flop 28J with A8, you're just hoping to play the tiniest pot possible.

Making hands that are really strong but infrequent is really profitable as long as you don't have to pay too much to make them and you can get paid when you hit. Think how profitable it is to flop sets.

If you're playing limit poker, this doesn't apply since it's much cheaper to reach showdown and you can't bet huge when you make monster hands. So A9 is better than A2.
 
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dudu10grande

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A2 - A5 has a small advantage against A6 - A9 simply because the sequence, but actually has a pretty bad kicker.
 
Thinker_145

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Cuz A9 vs. AK never happens.... :rolleyes:

And yeah, straights happen less frequently. But this is no limit. We make WAY more with a straight than we do middle pair. Typically when middle pair goes to showdown, it's a money loser in no limit. When you flop 28J with A8, you're just hoping to play the tiniest pot possible.

Making hands that are really strong but infrequent is really profitable as long as you don't have to pay too much to make them and you can get paid when you hit. Think how profitable it is to flop sets.

If you're playing limit poker, this doesn't apply since it's much cheaper to reach showdown and you can't bet huge when you make monster hands. So A9 is better than A2.

Where did I say anything about flopping middle pairs???

We make 2 pairs way more than we make straights.

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westside1950

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Can flop straight, A6-A8 cant and can only hit middle pair with them or an ace with a weak kicker.

So if you flop a two pair with A6-A9 on a dry board, what hands will pay you off?
When you flop a stragiht with A2-A5 it doesnt matter its not nut straight - only a complete fish would go in a hand with a 2-4 or 5-3 so you dont have to worry about nut straights.
Plus you will get more money with making other people paying their draws.
 
Thinker_145

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Can flop straight, A6-A8 cant and can only hit middle pair with them or an ace with a weak kicker.

So if you flop a two pair with A6-A9 on a dry board, what hands will pay you off?
When you flop a stragiht with A2-A5 it doesnt matter its not nut straight - only a complete fish would go in a hand with a 2-4 or 5-3 so you dont have to worry about nut straights.
Plus you will get more money with making other people paying their draws.
Not as weak a kicker as with A2. Infact as long as people are playing A2-5 the kicker is very much good with A6-9.

So we are going to flop 2 pair on a dry board and nobody will pay us off but we will make a straight and people will keep chasing their draws? Is that how you are gonna make this argument in your favor?

And as for your last point well yes A3 and A4 are much safer hands to play because of this. But A2 and A5 not so much as the probability of 56 and 67 getting to see the flop is much higher than 36 and 46.

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eggerdy

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Sklansky talks about this in Small Stakes Hold 'em:

"Some players mistakenly conclude that A5s-A2s are better than A9s-A6s because they can make a wheel. While the wheel possibility is useful, it generally does not overcome the high card strength of the latter hands."

But that's from a book specifically about Limit Hold' em, so I'm not sure how much it translates, if at all.
 
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colacho

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It is superior because you got more chances of matching, because the letters are more connected , so there are also chances to connect a straight or straight flush
 
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ph_il

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A2-A5
-You can make the nut flush, this beats weaker flushes
-You can make the nut wheel straight, this is a very well hidden hand which beats 2 pairs and sets [both are very likely to pay you off]
-You can make 2 pair, which beat weaker 2 pairs and can also get paid off by TP/TK hands. AK/AQ is very likely to pay off an A2 hand on a board of A29J7 rainbow

-You can easily fold TP/WK or SP/TK type hands against aggression. Very easy to fold A2 vs a board 29K and a reraise.
-Possibly easy to fold 2 pair type hands against aggression. A5 vs shove on A5KQ8 board.

A2-A5s has a lot of potential to making a lot of money because of the hidden strength of its hands, can avoid losing a lot of money because it's easy to fold hands you don't connect with strongly when facing a lot of aggression.

A6-A9s
-can make nut flush, beats out weaker flush.
-can make straights, but will never be nut straight. Can easily pay of higher straights.
-Can make 2 pair, beats out weaker 2 pair. Might be harder to fold 2 pair with A8 on a board of A8KJ3 facing a lot off aggression.
-Might be difficult to get away from TP/MK or MP/TK type off hands facing aggression. 2 pair is likely to get paid off by AK/AQ hands if they don't make 2 pair.

A6s-A9s can only really make money in flush vs flush situation. Other times, they're not really getting paid off unless its 2 pair vs weaker 2 pair. You have a better chance of taking small pots against missed draws, small pairs vs your MP/WK, or you're losing a lot of money with your low/mid straights, weaker 2 pair, or MP/WK or TP/MK vs higher pairs, better kickers, or better.
 
Thinker_145

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Sklansky talks about this in Small Stakes Hold 'em:

"Some players mistakenly conclude that A5s-A2s are better than A9s-A6s because they can make a wheel. While the wheel possibility is useful, it generally does not overcome the high card strength of the latter hands."
I completely concur with this.



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MissMtnDewAQ

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A9 is my favorite hand. Quite often I flop 2 pair
or catch a boat with this hand. I will take this hand
any day over A2-A5. suited or os
 
Thinker_145

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Who will ever take A2s over A9s??

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