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EasydoesitMG

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Hey everybody,

This is an issue that has been bothering me for some time. I don't play live at the casino very often and I've studied enough to be able to hold my own in most games.


Game is limit hold 'em.


Often though... because I'm not a recognized player I get the table working against me. I can tell because of the betting strategy.


1 person raises... Could be me, from any position. I get 1 caller or another raise. If I'm in the big blind I'm always raised by at least 1 person and called by another.


Now... If I fold before the flop the hand gets almost no action and they almost lose interest in the play.


If I see the flop, I have to be better than 2 pairs. Otherwise, I have no play. Because I can't bluff without at least one other player reraising which signals the other to get out of the hand.


This makes it impossible for me to build pots when I'm on a good hand because they control the betting to a standard max 2 raises. It also makes it impossible to build after the flop because if I raise - one calls signalling the other out. I almost never get reraised.


The turn and river are usually dead by that point. I'll get folded or only called if I'm good and because I know what's going on I'll have to fold if I get raised.


Has anybody ever seen this before and do they know how to handle it?
 
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bloodviper1s

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I mean, that sounds like collusion
 
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NBB

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Even if only one half of what you are describing is accurate, then you have one of two choices in my opinion.


1] Stop accepting home games of people you are not close friends with.
2] Get New friends. ............ Lol ........ :puke:
 
This Fish Chums

This Fish Chums

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You said this is happening at a casino in fixed limit games? In that case I would assume it is because they don't know me, but not necessarily due to collusion. What you are describing may be styles of play people use when they don't know anything about a player. If you have a home game with good reads on a group of people who always play with you and then an unknown player joins for a single session, wouldn't you alter your playing style?

Or, it may be collusion, which means . . . :puke::burnout:
 
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NBB

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Looks like I totally misread your post about where you were playing at the time.

I guess that should teach me to be more careful when I am up past 4:30 AM and writing my comments ......:eek: :eek: :eek:

For sure, if those situations were actually happening, then either you have one hell of a "TELL" that you need to fix, or there could possibly be some form of collusion among the players at the table.

But most likely they just took you as just one more new fish at their table and this was how they handled the situation.

Question: I you mention to the dealer what you were experiencing and ask for a ruling?
 
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EasydoesitMG

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I've had to ask for a ruling once.

The middle player showed his one card to another player without showing me - and the dealer didn't say a word. When I made a fuss the floor man was called over and he gave the guy crap and said that "you're making it look like we all cheat here."


Actually, I've had problems with dealers in the past too. One time I ended up calling 2 players cheats and told the dealer off. The floor man was out of the room and I did a reraise and everybody folded.

Then the two players told me I had to show even though they folded. I replied that they should have paid to see it. Then they told the dealer that I had to show and he totally backed them up. I looked for the floor man but he was gone. So I showed then took my winnings and left. Never went to that casino again.


I've seen collusion before and I feel like this is what's happening. I just was wondering if anybody had successfully used a strategy against it. I would love to come out a winner against these folks if possible. Just because I hate it so much.

If not I have to avoid the casinos - except for the tournaments where I don't see it happening. They aren't really friends so they play each other totally different in tournaments.

My regular game with friends has no collusion. We are all out for blood!
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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What stakes are you playing and do you go for full stake?

As for those types of players and how to beat them, you could take the safe route and tighten your range, hit the flop hard, and let those idiots do all the betting or risk it and start pushing back.
 
kidkvno1

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What stakes are you playing and do you go for full stake?

As for those types of players and how to beat them, you could take the safe route and tighten your range, hit the flop hard, and let those idiots do all the betting or risk it and start pushing back.
+1 to this.
 
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Chemist

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I hope you are not just just wanting to fill your pockets and crying foul when you meet your match. In which case there is no point reading on and there was no point in me wasting my time writing on.

In all fairness it sounds like they are good experienced (you say they play regularly) limit holdem players and unfortunately you are probably not yet.

Perhaps you are more familiar with the no limit style, where building pots is easier.

If an experienced pro whom they didn't know turned up as a random newbie they would all individually each still arrogantly imagine that they were the regulars who could take advantage of a new fish.

In fact it should be to your advantage that they under estimate the new arrivals and it should be possible for a good limit holdem player to profit from their explorative actions before they wise up.

It's probably not what you want to hear, but a couple of pointers from your description:
- bluffing doesn't often work in fixed limit games, because the limits make it easier to chase hands and cheap to catch bluffs by calling light.
- studying to hold your own is not really going to immediately compete with years of regular experience.
You've probably heard this before: 'Poker is a game that takes five minutes to learn and a lifetime to master'.
Each poker variant is also a different skill in it self and fixed limit certainly requires a different approach to no limit, and stud games require yet another skill set, (or luck at catching).
As you have noticed yourself tournament play is yet another skill that is different to the same variant's cash game counterpart and this has nothing to do with players knowing each other, it is all about tournament skills requirements.

In fact when one of the regulars raises your blind the next one probably isn't playing you but playing his friend, re-raising because he thinks he knows the first guy was just trying to take advantage of you. This is where you can really catch both of them out if you have the ability to time it right and choose the right hands to combat them with.
(Of course there is always the element of chance, but when your two three off suit flops a wheel straight against their set of aces you should be good as long as they don't fill up on the river).


In the end or at the beginning all you can do is choose to play what you enjoy.
If you don't like the people, their attitude, their chat, or their style of play then you should avoid them and find a more fun group to play with.
Also find a game variant and buy in level that you are comfortable with and can enjoy playing while breaking even with players like yourself.
And hope that one day someone will take those bullies to the cleaners. I hesitated to say teach them a lesson, because we don't really want them learning anything from it now do we.
 
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