When is slow playing correct?

When I first started playing poker, (20+ years ago) and up until a few years ago I was what you can call a "trap artist". (This is mostly live) I would slow play my monster flops, hoping villain would catch something on the turn and river, wait until villain was committed, then bang - shove for the rest of his chips. This has been very profitable in the past - especially live.

Recently, within the last 2 years or so, with the growing trend of aggression, I found myself losing more than I've been making by slow playing. (More so online). It seems the more I slow play either 2 things would happen more often that not:

1. Villain never catches anything good enough, will make a small bluff bet to try to steal, if I counter with a big raise or re raise, villain folds and I only end up profiting a few bb in the hand.

2. Villain ends up catching the nuts and I end up slow playing myself into oblivion. lol

So I rarely slow play at all anymore. Now, I will only slow play if I am out of position and catch say something like the nut/2nd nut flush on the flop or better. This still seems to work to an extent.

With the new trend of aggression, slow play is rarely necessary, imo. There are a many factors that are relevant, of course, like: board texture, villain's style/numbers, how many people are still in the hand, position, size of the pot, etc. But overall, I would say that slow playing (in micro stakes anyway) is unnecessary in the vast majority of cases. C betting is not even considered a bluff anymore online, it is standard, so even when flopping a monster, I have found that I am being called more often than not after the flop.

What are your thoughts/opinions on slow playing in 2010 and beyond?

Yeah I never slow play, free cards are BS, I'll only slow play with top set on a rainbow flop with no straight or flush draws.

I'm going to put this example in here of why I never slow play monster pairs preflop which I see happen all the time at micro limits. It kind of fits in with this theme.


IPoker Network $0.02/$0.04 Pot Limit Hold'em - 10 players - View hand 544120
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP2: $3.98
MP3: $2.11
CO: $0.88
BTN: $10.09
Hero (SB): $6.54
BB: $5.69
UTG: $1.00
UTG+1: $2.66
UTG+2: $4.96
MP1: $2.01

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is SB with 8 :heart: 7 :heart:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.04, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.04, MP3 calls $0.04, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.02, BB checks

Flop: ($0.24) T :club: 6 :heart: 5 :heart: (6 players)
Hero bets $0.06, BB raises to $0.21, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $0.21, MP3 calls $0.21, BTN calls $0.21, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($1.29) 3 :heart: (5 players)
Hero bets $0.32, BB calls $0.32, MP2 calls $0.32, MP3 folds, BTN folds

River: ($2.25) 9 :heart: (3 players)
Hero bets $0.56, BB folds, MP2 raises to $1.12, Hero raises to $2.80, MP2 raises to $3.41 all in, Hero calls $0.61

Final Pot: $9.07
MP2 shows A :heart: A :spade:
Hero wins $8.47
(Rake: $0.60)

I guess if you're the passive type when you miss, slow playing might be ok, but since I bet when I don't have it, I kind of have to bet when I do. Honestly, I might slow play non nut draws in position, but that's about it. I rarely slow play any made hand because I like winning stacks, instead of just a bet or two.

Online slow playing can be tricky.
The villain can fold, get lucky or really out slow play you.

I don't really slow play but since they can't see me, I will take my time to make a bet, usually one that makes it look like I'm try to steal.
Especially in micro stakes (up to .25/.50) this can be very profitable.

If they think you are weak and have you covered you will probably get called and turn some profit.

A lot of this depends on your image at the table as well. Have you been splashing chips around? TAG? LAG?

You always take the risk of a free card helping you opponent but that's poker.

I think in tournaments slow playing might be the correct play more often than ring games. I lost big with tptk once when I knew my opponent was outkicked. I played it very aggressively but he turn rivered a straight with his 7 kicker and thought he was ahead the whole time. It left me crippled.
In tournaments you don't have the luxury of playing the long odds so slowplaying can be more of a defensive maneuver I guess.

KK I take it back... use a probe bet to entice a bluff on the flop and then shove on his ass...

WVHillbilly said:

I guess if you're the passive type when you miss, slow playing might be ok, but since I bet when I don't have it, I kind of have to bet when I do. Honestly, I might slow play non nut draws in position, but that's about it. I rarely slow play any made hand because I like winning stacks, instead of just a bet or two.

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Yeah, that's pretty much what I do now. The only way to slow play and make a profit is a against an over aggressive maniac who is willing to let you do it to him. Other than that, I don't see much benefit.

On a side note, I just noticed where you're from, Mr. "V betting for information" Ha, ha...very funny.

I guess it is only correct when you're facing someone that bluffs all the time and / or best very agressively his top pairs

I do like slow playing myself but don't do it as much as I'd like because I don't think it's too profitable either...and yes you can give your ops free cards and overlook straight draws present etc. especially multi tabling

There are many forms of slowplaying besides checking. If you have a monster and only 3-bet it I consider that a slowplay as well. Also if you make a small semi-bluff and the next card hits you a check is in order there because other players will rarely give you credit for betting a draw.

I'd also add that being seen as overly aggressive can give you a lot of free cards when you have position. The utg with tptk is going to wait to see what you do on the button with your unknown to him flush draw.

Two things about slowplaying:

1. In the last couple of years most players taking the game somewhat seriously will have learned the lesson of "pot control" (Ed Miller's "Big Pots Big hands") and for that reason someone attempting to slowplay will often find that the turn gets checked back and they end up winning a small pot.

2. Versus thinking opponents who will adjust their play based on what they notice you doing (tough regs at the midstakes will do this, I can't really speak for stakes below 1/2 anymore), you have to slowplay occasionally to balance. If you can never have the nuts when you check/call the flop, your hand becomes really easily read - especially if you're aggressive with draws. So you didn't check/raise the J-6-2 twotone flop? Then your range is 77-TT, Jx and maybe 6x (depending on if that's in your range preflop). Suddenly JT becomes an easy value bet versus you, even if the turn completes the flushdraw, and overcards become hugely profitable to double barrel as bluffs. Not good.

For that reason, slowplaying sets some of the time is a necessary evil - when playing tough regs. If your'e not playing tough regs, this does not apply.

The flipside of this is that if you DO raise your flopped sets very often, you can add quite a few bluffs into your range as well. If balancing is an issue at the games you play.

I agree with Paulsson on the necessity to mix it up. I find at the lower stakes big field mtts it can save your tourney life by waiting to see if you're monster pans out and then play accordingly on the river. The logic being you'll get called by a wide range of hands and lose control with aggressive betting as you'll often end up all in. Throwing a few traps out there will also get you cheaper drawing hands down the road as people become reluctant to raise air against you. So even if that particular hand doesn't pan out as the tourney taker it will facilitate a cheaper path to victory overall.

I don't like slow playing big pocket pairs pre-flop, as they don't hold up well in passive situations. However, a monster hand post-flop disguised by passive play can be a deadly weapon against an aggressive player. Once your slow play is exposed, it adds the ability to be more aggressive post-flop, as your opponents cannot be so sure if you have the nuts or squat.

I now define "slow playing" as making a 2xBB-potsize bet... I'll do the same with a draw as with TPTK or a made set. It looks the same as a c-bet. Part of this is to disguise my play. This can get interesting when the opponent bets back at me. I try to force them to make a decision, but not necessarily for their stack. Sometimes they return the force, and then I am the one who has a decision to make.

It really depends on who else is in the hand. Someone who will nearly always bet if checked to would make me adjust my play to a check raise or even a slow play.

Betting a moderate amount will sometimes allow you to control the pot. But with a table full of aggressive players, this is sometimes difficult. Basically, the others have to learn to fear your raises.

Only time its ever correct to slowplay is when you have a straight or set on a board with no flush draws... if you flop a flush it isnt even safe to slowplay unless you have the ace high flush, then I guess its pretty safe.

It's difficult to say. I've flopped a full house against 2 opponents and lost. On the other hand I've also got value out of checking the flop and let an opponent catch a pair on the turn. You shouldn't always bet out when you have something, but slow playing trips has been both good and bad me. If I put my opponent on an overpair I'll usually just call with trips and let them facilitate the aggression but if its a drawy board I definitely won't be slowplaying.

I found the one comment interesting, where betting out can be a slowplay as well. In my experience, I've found that the whole question of a slowplay depends on your table.

If you're at a table where people like to fire away relentlessly, if you flop a big hand, don't play your hand too tricky, because these types will pay you off.

The game has, as a lot of people have already said, become more aggressive, so adapting your style accordingly should help.

One time playing live, I flopped quads, and just let the other two players bet out (I was check-calling). I already knew they were calling stations who would value top pair or their own pocket pair, so I gave them rope to hang themselves. Then, on the river, I shoved for the rest of my chips (at that point, it wasn't much), and one player actually folded (I started with like 8k, and had about 2.5k left on the river. The one caller had top pair on the board (2 pair total).

I ended up winning that night (bar league).

One side note.....It should be interesting to see where poker will be 1-2 years from now.

Recently I've been betting a single chip to try to induce raises. Seems to work - now my question is, what's my next play? Re raise or flat call? What I've found is that min raising seems to at least get called. 3x raising seems to get insta folded a lot. When I flat call, then bet on the next street, opponents seem to fold 3/4 of the time, maybe more.

Kasanova King said:

Recently I've been betting a single chip to try to induce raises. Seems to work - now my question is, what's my next play? Re raise or flat call? What I've found is that min raising seems to at least get called. 3x raising seems to get insta folded a lot. When I flat call, then bet on the next street, opponents seem to fold 3/4 of the time, maybe more.

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That's bodog for ya... lol