When should you fold Kings preflop ?

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Papier24

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Hey guys,

I know that there are already simualar threads existing. But I have just lost 5 times in only two days with KK against Aces. That's why I'm starting to think more often about folding KK preflop lately.

Do you think that folding KK preflop in a normal micro stakes cash game is ever correct ?
I'm getting ultra paranoid with KK lately because every time I get 4bet by a nit I think I have to fold. But I'm still convinced these are all just coolers and I just can't get away from it. It just sucks because KK vs. Aces is a threat to my bankroll.
It is obviously just super easy to exploit players who fold kings preflop but let's say I play against a 10/8 nit with a 1 % 3bet stat and he 4bets me when I have KK. Should I really fold ?
 
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braveslice

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It’s quite ok not to 3bet against that kind of nit, especially if he opens on early position (a story I heard in the bar, probably not true :icon_rend )


And yes you can fold, easily even, if you are deep.
But there should not be many real nits in 6max, I noticed none today.
 
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MrSamsa

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5 is definitly excessive variance you'd think you'd hit a set or run into queens every now and again.

That said I have been hearing this problem a lot lately... if they are a nit preflop its always good to mix in calling and then use boards to bluff them when you do have that hand as their betting will usually give them away. Were they all, all in preflop situations?
 
dj11

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I can't resist.....

When you're playing RAZZ!
 
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Cooking

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Tough decision. I can't say much because I rarely fold KK preflop, but depends the read that I have of the other player.
 
blueskies

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I would never fold KK pre. I am looking to go all in everytime. If I run into AA so be it.
 
MrGrace

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Thats a tuff one hard to put kk down preflop but if you feel they have the AA or you are in a one up turny and don't need to risk the chips always go with your gut. That's my opinion.
 
playinggameswithu

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If it is a multi way 4 bet pot. If you are in a sat. tourney situation. I would not fold in cash game because people are crazy enough to 3 bet 4 bet with TT to QQ even AK plus you still win 1 to 4 which objectively is not that bad.
 
joesta

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I couldn't see a situation where I fold pre flop but call his bet see how that looks and if it changes your feelings maybe you can get off the hand probably really hard unless if A comes on the flop.
 
schtiuky

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Just lost with kk pre against Q6 but hey thats life so if you whana fold them preflop do it if you play on a tight player with a bigger stack anything else is just rusian rullet wben it hapens it hapens. Also feel free to drop them on a bubble. Get into money first.
 
leshausa03

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The same question can be asked regarding AA
 
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Denver225

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You can only fold KK in that case if you are sure almost 100% on stats or on specific entries on your opponent that he is super tight...and in all other cases, to fold preflop KK on the course will not be the right decision
 
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Milosika1991

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I think that everything is in the feeling, we need to have the feeling when the opponent keeps a stronger card from us in this case two aces. I will not fold the two kings so easily...
 
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Hondo

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Being able to fold KK pre-flop is what separates us from the pro's.

There is a hand history replay in the pokerstars archives of Randy Lew folding kings pre-flop .


Will see if I can't find it and place a link here unless someone tells me there are copy rite issues.
 
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Papier24

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I would never fold KK pre. I am looking to go all in everytime. If I run into AA so be it.
With this mindset I have always approached this situation. The problem is 5NL is full of nits who only 4bet with KK/AA. And when I'm already holding the KK it is very unlikely villain also has KK.
I have even seen people folding QQ preflop against me. I'm probably one of the few players who 4bet bluffs in the micros anyway.
Of course there are also many fishes who go all in with random pairs but against all decent really tight players I think I just have to call 3bets with KK instead of 4betting.

Because even if I really believe my opponents holds the aces I could never fold KK without feeling super bad.
 
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sbarnhouse

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If people are only 4b with KK/AA, you should be 4b a wider range to take advantage of that, and in turn, the table should loosen up a bit, then you tighten your range and wait to catch someone :)
 
rsimms

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You need to have a real special read on somebody to fold KK pre-flop, and if you did definitely lie about what you had if you are playing live. People with rockets usually want to show them off afterwards or at least talk about it, so you can at least get some feedback. I would imagine if a strong player knows that you are capable of laying that down the pressure won't stop coming your way.

Like somebody else mentioned, getting cooled off by AA 5 times in a row is crazy bad luck. KK is a monster, you gotta play your big hands hard, and if you run into aces, you just gotta pay the man, way she goes.
 
Xcoder

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I tend to flat call with KK preflop if there has been a 3bet. Incoming 4bets for me are normally a fold or an all in spot for me.
 
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Ragfish

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First time poster ... so Hi!!

Funny seeing this thread and having had a recent experience... HH Below..


PPokerStars - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 playersHand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 283.66 BB (VPIP: 25.14, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 1.12, Hands: 894)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.92, PFR: 14.01, 3Bet Preflop: 7.63, Hands: 311)
BB: 125 BB (VPIP: 13.09, PFR: 1.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 196)
UTG: 35.42 BB (VPIP: 19.64, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 57)
UTG+1: 110.74 BB (VPIP: 14.04, PFR: 12.15, 3Bet Preflop: 5.49, Hands: 642)
Hero (MP): 299.86 BB
MP+1: 102.18 BB (VPIP: 13.22, PFR: 7.76, 3Bet Preflop: 1.38, Hands: 352)
CO: 142.38 BB (VPIP: 16.26, PFR: 13.37, 3Bet Preflop: 5.19, Hands: 952)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K<font color='black'>♠</font> K<font color='black'>♣</font>

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 10.5 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 33 BB, BTN raises to 283.66 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero mucks K<font color='black'>♠</font> K<font color='black'>♣</font>

BTN wins 67.5 BB

I'm by no means a nit, but I'd only seen this player (albeit small sample) 3 bet with AA. Couldn't see a near 300BB shove being anything other than AA. If 100BB and up to 150, I'm definitely calling, but in this spot, I thought the fold was decent??
 
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vpashuta

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I don't think of ever folding KK preflop. Sorry to hear about your recent bad luck running up against AA, but statistically, at a full table you are looking at this possibility maybe one time in 20 holding KK.
 
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freestocks

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The biggest hands are likely to clash, but I'm not folding kings.
 
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GLovvorn

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That is a tough one. I have folded KK preflop many times but it was when I have had a good read on the villain and knew he had the nuts. As a general rule, I don't challenge a NIT unless I have the nuts. Their style of play doesn't allow you to win much, even if you make a hand. If they are a true NIT you can count on them playing fit or fold post flop. They can be easy to bluff off a hand though.
 
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roadmanraja

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There are spots where folding Kings is justified in my opinion and it's not just when you think your opponent has aces. Although sometimes you have to accept that Kings is a premium hand and if your beat, your losing whether you put all the chips pre-flop or on later streets.
 
Jockerist

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If, after your bet is a raise then it is better to lose KK and not to spare them. Better to save your stack and continue playing.
 
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