When playing on a limping table full of fish...

Thinker_145

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You know the sort of players who would shove TPWK on the flop and would not let go of bottom pair/ace high until the river. If against these players we can see the flop for 1 BB we should be doing it with ATC isn't it? I mean if I am a superior post flop player to the entire table then why not just keep limping with them instead of waiting for good hands?

I was playing on such a table today and wondered about this thing. I then started playing more hands pre whenever I could see the flop cheaply and got paid off massively when I hit some of my mediocre hands that I wouldn't normally have played. And they weren't bad beats on the other end it was just fish being fish. And yes I know that if we keep playing mediocre hands they will eventually win big pots but that is not the point here. It just doesn't take so long to flop big hands that putting 1 BB in would become a losing play in the long run.

I see a lot of regs keep playing the regular game on such tables where they keep raising most hands they play even OOP and I feel its just not the right kinda strategy on such tables.

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thatgreekdude

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play a few more speculatives, don't just start playing 72 and 28 for the chances of flopping two pair or better. You get my point though just open your range up accordingly.
 
suby_rafael

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When you know you can outplay other players post flop it is definitely a good idea to limp with marginal hands rather trying to raise and risk getting outplayed pre flop. But also remember you don't want to be falling into the trap of overplaying your hand. After all it is limped pot and sometimes you will run into better hands so try not to get involved in a big pot with a monster draw, even when you have the bottom end of straight and the opponent plays back at you then be wary as he may have the higher end of it.:boxing:
 
Thinker_145

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play a few more speculatives, don't just start playing 72 and 28 for the chances of flopping two pair or better. You get my point though just open your range up accordingly.

Yes agreed.

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Thinker_145

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When you know you can outplay other players post flop it is definitely a good idea to limp with marginal hands rather trying to raise and risk getting outplayed pre flop. But also remember you don't want to be falling into the trap of overplaying your hand. After all it is limped pot and sometimes you will run into better hands so try not to get involved in a big pot with a monster draw, even when you have the bottom end of straight and the opponent plays back at you then be wary as he may have the higher end of it.:boxing:

Yes one should know the difference between a heads up hand and a limped hand.

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taban13

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With the fish certainly better play small banks with weak hands and large with strong.
 
RodneyC86

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Absolutely nothing wrong limping alone with a strong speculative hand. But with a hand that typically gets most value by hitting top pair type hands you need to edge out as many as possible before the flop. Hitting top pair In a 6 way pot is a disgusting situation
 
BenjiHustle

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You can get involved in some more pots, but be sure that you're playing hands when you're in position if you're going to try this so that you avoid falling into bad spots. Limping along with all of them just puts you in position to lose with K9 against K4's 2pair, you know?
 
Mr Sandbag

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Couple things from this thread I'd like to address:

When you know you can outplay other players post flop it is definitely a good idea to limp with marginal hands rather trying to raise and risk getting outplayed pre flop.

First, if OP has a big post flop edge on the table, there would be more value in opening up his raising range preflop rather than starting to limp marginal/questionable hands in multiway pots.

Second, I'm not sure the logic in bold makes much sense. I highly doubt OP will get outplayed preflop if he's got a significant advantage post flop.

I mean if I am a superior post flop player to the entire table then why not just keep limping with them instead of waiting for good hands?

Because they're probably making a mistake by limping so wide, and we don't exploit that leak by doing the same thing. If there are tons of limpers, it is a good opportunity to raise (sizing should probably be on the larger side) and create dead money and tons of value. I'm not saying you should be raising ATC from any position, but opening up your late position raising range could be very profitable. Remember to stay tight in early position though. Playing a multiway pot OOP even against fish can be hell.
 
BenjiHustle

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I mean if I am a superior post flop player to the entire table then why not just keep limping with them instead of waiting for good hands?

Because they're probably making a mistake by limping so wide, and we don't exploit that leak by doing the same thing. If there are tons of limpers, it is a good opportunity to raise (sizing should probably be on the larger side) and create dead money and tons of value.

^^^^This times a million.
 
Thinker_145

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Couple things from this thread I'd like to address:



First, if OP has a big post flop edge on the table, there would be more value in opening up his raising range preflop rather than starting to limp marginal/questionable hands in multiway pots.

Second, I'm not sure the logic in bold makes much sense. I highly doubt OP will get outplayed preflop if he's got a significant advantage post flop.



Because they're probably making a mistake by limping so wide, and we don't exploit that leak by doing the same thing. If there are tons of limpers, it is a good opportunity to raise (sizing should probably be on the larger side) and create dead money and tons of value. I'm not saying you should be raising ATC from any position, but opening up your late position raising range could be very profitable. Remember to stay tight in early position though. Playing a multiway pot OOP even against fish can be hell.

I think the thing you are missing is that these fish are capable of bluffing me after the flop where as I will not attempt to bluff them.

Secondly even in an unraised pot I am capable of making the pot really big with my monsters against these sort of players. Heck many times they shove themselves right into your monster.

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Personally, in a table of fish I feel I have a much stronger edge against any one player than against three or four players. If people are opening and calling with a wide range, then I'm looking at my heads up value to get involved. Ax, K9+, pocket pair. These are hands that are likely to be best against any given two cards. So that's my raising range. And I'm making substantial raises pre-flop.

Ultimately, my advantage here is picking up folds pre-flop, and outplaying one player post flop. IF players are getting really bluffy, then I'm trying to feel out the bluffs. Looking at things like connected midrange cards, two suits to the board, and over bets in conjunction. That kind of stuff. There's good money to be made by calling badly timed bluffs. So again, it's about range. What is each opponent's likely bluff range? As a general rule of thumb, fish aren't trying to scare you away from the pot with big bets when they have good hands. They're trying to scare you away when they unmade hands or marginal hands they know are beat.
 
Thinker_145

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On average top and bottom 2 pair is good enough even in limped hands. And when you have a premium hand raise the hell out of it pre flop if you get the chance and at least one fish will still call not having noticed that you were limping previously in so many hands.

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rdm4k

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You know the sort of players who would shove TPWK on the flop and would not let go of bottom pair/ace high until the river. If against these players we can see the flop for 1 BB we should be doing it with ATC isn't it? I mean if I am a superior post flop player to the entire table then why not just keep limping with them instead of waiting for good hands?

I was playing on such a table today and wondered about this thing. I then started playing more hands pre whenever I could see the flop cheaply and got paid off massively when I hit some of my mediocre hands that I wouldn't normally have played. And they weren't bad beats on the other end it was just fish being fish. And yes I know that if we keep playing mediocre hands they will eventually win big pots but that is not the point here. It just doesn't take so long to flop big hands that putting 1 BB in would become a losing play in the long run.

I see a lot of regs keep playing the regular game on such tables where they keep raising most hands they play even OOP and I feel its just not the right kinda strategy on such tables.

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Imho wat y saying makes sense. I mean the optimal strategy has already been said but if you feel comfortable with you postflop skills y may surely widen up your overlimping range and play more spot ip.
It is definitely a known tourney strategy called smallball. Y tend to be involved in more pot, controlling the size, so taking down more of them.
I guess open raising x2 is definitely more sensed cos y want to build pot anyway and keep the aggression.
Of course I can think of the risk to overplay TP and 2P. You may play more hands a way close to nuts. Y must be capable to make good fold otherwise I bet that overall an abc tag strategy would be always better to play against weak loose ppls who are ready to give you the stack when y hold nuts.

If y got a tracking sw, play some K hands and come back with the results. It willl be much more appreciated and concrete to talk about.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

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I think the idea is that you don't have to press every small edge you have against bad players, you can wait 'til you have a larger advantage.

Post-flop skills, position and implied odds offer you that advantage. But your post flop skills really need to be leagues above your opponents.

Lol as a beginning player i know this best. I can't limp in with those sepculative hands bc if i do have an edge post flop, its very very small/nonexistent. so my only edge is that i can fold pre flop :(((

But if you are comfortalbe playing in those marginal situations against villains, there is a lot of money to be made off of bad players bluffing for sure.
 
DrOZchat

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me gustaria saber si entienden español?
 
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