When to double barrel?

L

ludde2009

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I've found myself in all sorts of tricky spots when open raising for example a pocket pair like TT or so from mid position and getting a caller in late positon.

The flop comes like A 5 9 rainbow and I fire a standard c-bet. He calls and the turn comes another brick. Here if I check, he will most likely bet and perhaps force me off the best hand. If I bet and he raises/calls again - I'm in an even more awkward spot.

I'm playing a lot of zoom poker, so don't really have that many stats on villains I'm playing against. But it seems to me it's a really huge leak to just c-bet then c/fold when playing oop.

What do you guys think? Since I see most people tend to float the flop, and a double barrel can often get the job done - but it can also put me in a very tricky spot playing for bigger pots than I should.
 
Yoshimiii

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I hardly ever double barrel at small stakes due to fish calling down with junk. However if I do I don't do it on A high board like them as if they called the flop they probably have an Ace, I would do it when the flop comes 5,2,9 rainbow and the turn card is an over card, preferably paint card. I don't play zoom poker though, however when I cbet the right boards the villain usually folds, "But it seems to me it's a really huge leak to just c-bet then c/fold when playing oop". - that's why I hardly ever try to play out of position and c-bet less OOp.
 
pocketehs

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This would be way easier if you posted a hand with stats becuz the question is pretty general. However, with TT on that board you have to think about his range and how hard the flop hit his range. Since he is on the button, he is going to have a lot of Ax hands, broadway cards, pairs and suited connectors, right? Like his range is going to be a lot wider than if he was an EP raiser. Just try to break down what cards he cant have based on his actions pre flop and on the flop.

For instance, preflop we can say he probably wont have jj+ or else he would have 3-bet. Use VPIP, PFR and PF 3-bet % to help breakdown his range.

Flop - since he just flat called we can rule out a lot of drawing cards like broadway cards except for hands like 98, 67 etc. We can also assume hands like A-rag are still possible seeing as he just flat called. Pairs such as 55/99 he would probably raise the c-bet and pairs 66-88 he is probably going to fold. But what hands does he just flat call with? This is when stats such as FtoCB, AF are really handy.

T - I think we have to check back here for pot control b/c playing OOP we have less information on the villains hand strength and then make a decision to check/call or check/fold. Once again, AF is going to help use decide whether this player is passive or aggressive.

Essentially, from what Ive learned so far its really hard to say what is right or the best play in a very general situation like this bc it really does depend on the player. Try just posting a hand in HA and CC members will help with a line check :) and maybe if youre finding it that hard to keep a stat database of villains on Zoom then maybe switch to just fast regular games so that you can make good use of your HUD.
 
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Cafeman

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What do you do when you have a strong ace or a set of 9s?
 
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I never used to double barrel and it cost me a lot of money I think. Lots of people float the flop and try to take the pot down after you check the turn.

I usually try to double barrel any scare card on the turn. You said you play zoom so have no stats on players, so that's the only advice I could give you really. If you double barrel on a scary turn card and they call, you can probably give them credit for a hand.
 
AlfieAA

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This would be way easier if you posted a hand with stats becuz the question is pretty general. However, with TT on that board you have to think about his range and how hard the flop hit his range. Since he is on the button, he is going to have a lot of Ax hands, broadway cards, pairs and suited connectors, right? Like his range is going to be a lot wider than if he was an EP raiser. Just try to break down what cards he cant have based on his actions pre flop and on the flop.

For instance, preflop we can say he probably wont have jj+ or else he would have 3-bet. Use VPIP, PFR and PF 3-bet % to help breakdown his range.

Flop - since he just flat called we can rule out a lot of drawing cards like broadway cards except for hands like 98, 67 etc. We can also assume hands like A-rag are still possible seeing as he just flat called. Pairs such as 55/99 he would probably raise the c-bet and pairs 66-88 he is probably going to fold. But what hands does he just flat call with? This is when stats such as FtoCB, AF are really handy.

T - I think we have to check back here for pot control b/c playing OOP we have less information on the villains hand strength and then make a decision to check/call or check/fold. Once again, AF is going to help use decide whether this player is passive or aggressive.

Essentially, from what Ive learned so far its really hard to say what is right or the best play in a very general situation like this bc it really does depend on the player. Try just posting a hand in HA and CC members will help with a line check :) and maybe if youre finding it that hard to keep a stat database of villains on Zoom then maybe switch to just fast regular games so that you can make good use of your HUD.

+1 nice post pt!
 
youregoodmate

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This would be way easier if you posted a hand with stats becuz the question is pretty general. However, with TT on that board you have to think about his range and how hard the flop hit his range. Since he is on the button, he is going to have a lot of Ax hands, broadway cards, pairs and suited connectors, right? Like his range is going to be a lot wider than if he was an EP raiser. Just try to break down what cards he cant have based on his actions pre flop and on the flop.

For instance, preflop we can say he probably wont have jj+ or else he would have 3-bet. Use VPIP, PFR and PF 3-bet % to help breakdown his range.

Flop - since he just flat called we can rule out a lot of drawing cards like broadway cards except for hands like 98, 67 etc. We can also assume hands like A-rag are still possible seeing as he just flat called. Pairs such as 55/99 he would probably raise the c-bet and pairs 66-88 he is probably going to fold. But what hands does he just flat call with? This is when stats such as FtoCB, AF are really handy.

T - I think we have to check back here for pot control b/c playing OOP we have less information on the villains hand strength and then make a decision to check/call or check/fold. Once again, AF is going to help use decide whether this player is passive or aggressive.

Essentially, from what Ive learned so far its really hard to say what is right or the best play in a very general situation like this bc it really does depend on the player. Try just posting a hand in HA and CC members will help with a line check :) and maybe if youre finding it that hard to keep a stat database of villains on Zoom then maybe switch to just fast regular games so that you can make good use of your HUD.

Ding ding ding - Top answer
 
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Leakbuster put out a video about a month or so ago on here called "To Barrel or not to Barrel?"

It is under the "instructional video" section in the Learning Poker thread. It is pretty good, and might be helpful.
 
T

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This would be way easier if you posted a hand with stats becuz the question is pretty general. However, with TT on that board you have to think about his range and how hard the flop hit his range. Since he is on the button, he is going to have a lot of Ax hands, broadway cards, pairs and suited connectors, right? Like his range is going to be a lot wider than if he was an EP raiser. Just try to break down what cards he cant have based on his actions pre flop and on the flop.

For instance, preflop we can say he probably wont have jj+ or else he would have 3-bet. Use VPIP, PFR and PF 3-bet % to help breakdown his range.

Flop - since he just flat called we can rule out a lot of drawing cards like broadway cards except for hands like 98, 67 etc. We can also assume hands like A-rag are still possible seeing as he just flat called. Pairs such as 55/99 he would probably raise the c-bet and pairs 66-88 he is probably going to fold. But what hands does he just flat call with? This is when stats such as FtoCB, AF are really handy.

T - I think we have to check back here for pot control b/c playing OOP we have less information on the villains hand strength and then make a decision to check/call or check/fold. Once again, AF is going to help use decide whether this player is passive or aggressive.

Essentially, from what Ive learned so far its really hard to say what is right or the best play in a very general situation like this bc it really does depend on the player. Try just posting a hand in HA and CC members will help with a line check :) and maybe if you're finding it that hard to keep a stat database of villains on Zoom then maybe switch to just fast regular games so that you can make good use of your HUD.

On a board like A 9 5, so long as there is no flush, I don't see why a set would raise, especially IP. More likely that a set will flat the flop, and come out firing on the turn.

I wouldn't fire a second barrel with an A high flop, unless villain likes to float flop to bluff turn. Check out the Fold to C-Bet stat to see how stubborn he is post flop. Good times to double barrel would be when the turn brings a higher card; when you pick up a flush/straight draw; or whenever you sense weakness in your opponent.

This is why position is so important. Double barreling OOP is always dangerous, because if villain re-raises you're either going to ship-bluff or fold.
 
John A

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I did this video a few weeks ago. It should be helpful...

 
pocketehs

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I did this video a few weeks ago. It should be helpful...

Saw this the other day, John. When I was doing some review I noticed that I had a high F c-bet% and also a high T c-bet % basically meaning that I was firing a lot of double barrels. This video has helped a lot already. Great video thanks!
 
easypickns

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Thanks for the lesson John. It gave me some things to think about.
 
vinylspiros

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i would 100 % shoot another barrel on the flop and turn to see where the guys at and to see where im at.i like scouting bets.smallish typed bets to get a feeling of where im at and where my opponents at.i dont like to give him the power to raise on a board like that cause i dont wanna play the guessing game passively.if u make a medium sized bet and he reraises then you got urself some info.but if u check and he bets,ur in no mans land. the reason id fire another barrel on the turn is because alot of the times most people will call at least one flop continuation bet ,EVEN WITH AIR, in order to see if your honest so if you fire the second barrel on the turn and AHD RAISED PREFLOP there is no reason for him to not believe you have the ace. so if he calls the turn bet then u just have to shut down unless you can use the board to your advantage of if you feel like he was drawing to a flush or smthng. but whatever hey.MANY MANY SCENARIOS come out of each hand. i dont think there is any right or wrong answer to this.its a matter of perception and playing style. good luck to you bud.
 
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John A

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Saw this the other day, John. When I was doing some review I noticed that I had a high F c-bet% and also a high T c-bet % basically meaning that I was firing a lot of double barrels. This video has helped a lot already. Great video thanks!

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped. I know it's a difficult area for a lot of people.
 
blueskies

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It depends on the opponent. I am ok with check/calling both the flop and river IF villain is the type to bet on any sense of weakness. I don't like firing a barrel on the turn because only hands that beat me will call unless the opponent is a moron who will call multiple bets with bottom pair. PS, TT and AQs and AQos are my biggest money losers so I ought to be folding them more often.
 
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