When do you "bank gains" in micro stakes?

Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
The subject header pretty much says it all. Basically, I'm wondering if it's an okay practice to, if you get a good amount above your starting stack in a micro stakes cash game, to leave, "banking" your gains, and then come back as soon as you can. I mean...yes chip bullying is a thing you can do with a stack considerably above the max buy in, but I believe in micro stakes you're a lot more likely to be called even if the bullying is all in by a hand that wouldn't be worth playing in sensible circumstances, but can in fact beat a bullying bluff. So since accumulating a stack for the purpose of bullying can be dangerous, would it just be better to bank gains on a regular basis or regular threshold?
 
enolan

enolan

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Total posts
282
Chips
0
At micros I found that any big stack bullying I tried just increased my variance. The net result was not a significant increase in profit. Bullying only works if players have a Fold in them ... not often enough at micros.
Rather than 'Banking' I keep my big stack in play and play TAG. I find I get less steal attempts and less 3-bet on my raises and a nice steady chip growth.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Total posts
2,665
Awards
1
Chips
7
Im pretty sure most poker rooms will only allow you to buy back in with the amount you just stood up with.

I wouldnt worry about what the other players are thinking, because at microstakes, they dont generally think.
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
Im pretty sure most poker rooms will only allow you to buy back in with the amount you just stood up with.

I wouldnt worry about what the other players are thinking, because at microstakes, they dont generally think.

I'm not talking live poker rooms. And I'm trying to figure what purpose NOT securing winnings in this way and instead building a big stack would have. So far there doesn't seem to be one.
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
Doing this allows you to play with stack size you are familiar with, while having a deep stack requires some adjustments depending if another big stack is in the hand with you (otherwise effective stack is the smaller one anyway).

Bullying people in cash games via stack size doesn't actually exist except in rare cases (deep vs deep, you have position + board is scary + opponent is actually scared).
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
Doing this allows you to play with stack size you are familiar with, while having a deep stack requires some adjustments depending if another big stack is in the hand with you (otherwise effective stack is the smaller one anyway).

Bullying people in cash games via stack size doesn't actually exist except in rare cases (deep vs deep, you have position + board is scary + opponent is actually scared).

The "this" you're referring to is what I'm talking about, banking wins and reducing your stack back to the max buy in correct?
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
All right, all right...but I still don't know what potential benefits there would be to actually building a large stack rather than banking gains. I find it hard to believe they're aren't ANY so I'm hoping someone can go into this a bit.
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
Online. It'd be pretty implausible to bank gains live--the physical element added makes it quite impractical to keep exiting tables and reentering them. Such behavior is also more likely to stand out as odd in a live setting than an online setting.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,596
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
Doing this allows you to play with stack size you are familiar with, while having a deep stack requires some adjustments depending if another big stack is in the hand with you (otherwise effective stack is the smaller one anyway).

Bullying people in cash games via stack size doesn't actually exist except in rare cases (deep vs deep, you have position + board is scary + opponent is actually scared).

maybe read this post over again
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
maybe read this post over again

Um, if your answer is there really ISN'T much point to not banking gains if you're willing to do it, then why not just come right out and say it? That's all I'd need.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Total posts
1,190
Chips
0
What is "banking gains" and why wouldn't I want to play deeper with bad opponents?

I don't play high relative to my roll online, so this isn't a factor in determining whether I stay at a table or not.

If you're playing on a short roll (say 10 BI's) and run up to 3/4 BI's I could possibly see someone leaving just because they don't want the variance of 30%+ of their roll on the table even if it's + EV overall.

At that point building a proper roll (30-50BI's) would take precedence over just raw naked EV.
 
M

mr_kommpa

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Total posts
140
Chips
0
Bullying does not exist in cash games because no one are scared of losing there stack, they can just buy more chips. It should only be two reasons for some one to leave a table but still keep on paying your session.

1. If you have doubled or tripled up and you got an other reg at your table that has also doubled or tripled up. If you dont belive yourself to play a better deep stack play than your opponent than you can make som costy misstakes.

2. if the fish at your table has left.

I dont really see any reason to "bank gains" because if you are still playing against fish and its no reg deep than you still got effectively the same stack as the fish and the reg. So I never "bank gains".
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Say your 6 tabling. And you bank your gains and change tables. Say your on a big poker site.

Well technically your not winning all 6 tables at the sametime, unless your on some type of heater or you crush that level...

What i'm trying to say is if you double up and then leave that winning table, your eventually going to run into 6 tables your possibly going to be all losing at.

Sometimes you gotta stick hard at those winning tables until you sense that bad luck and bad beats coming your way. Those winning tables where your boosting your BB's quick don't always come around fast enough and if you change tables your passing up the option to win more money.

Perhaps you need more discipline when big stacked and also adjusting your style will help dramatically you just need to be aware of different weather.

It also looks weak doubling up and quitting a table and stupid because your leaving to lose it on another table and losing ur advantage with your stack.
 
J

Johnny Aces

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Total posts
122
Awards
1
US
Chips
0
Banking gains

The subject header pretty much says it all. Basically, I'm wondering if it's an okay practice to, if you get a good amount above your starting stack in a micro stakes cash game, to leave, "banking" your gains, and then come back as soon as you can. I mean...yes chip bullying is a thing you can do with a stack considerably above the max buy in, but I believe in micro stakes you're a lot more likely to be called even if the bullying is all in by a hand that wouldn't be worth playing in sensible circumstances, but can in fact beat a bullying bluff. So since accumulating a stack for the purpose of bullying can be dangerous, would it just be better to bank gains on a regular basis or regular threshold?

Always watch your bankroll and play only ten percent of it at a time. It takes a lot of diciplie to do thi.
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
Say your 6 tabling. And you bank your gains and change tables. Say your on a big poker site.

Well technically your not winning all 6 tables at the sametime, unless your on some type of heater or you crush that level...

What i'm trying to say is if you double up and then leave that winning table, your eventually going to run into 6 tables your possibly going to be all losing at.

Sometimes you gotta stick hard at those winning tables until you sense that bad luck and bad beats coming your way. Those winning tables where your boosting your BB's quick don't always come around fast enough and if you change tables your passing up the option to win more money.

Perhaps you need more discipline when big stacked and also adjusting your style will help dramatically you just need to be aware of different weather.

It also looks weak doubling up and quitting a table and stupid because your leaving to lose it on another table and losing ur advantage with your stack.

Let's NOT say I'm six tabling I'm gonna be two tabling TOPS. And why would leaving my table then returning to the same one, going to a different one if someone joined in the five seconds it took for me to close the window and click back in (which would happen with a waiting list) but either way, how would what table I'm playing make any dang difference of whether I'm winning or losing unless somehow the only new table I can get into is full of bruisers? And it's not likely that would happen because I'd practically have to be playing a BLIND LEVEL full of bruisers who are better than me, which is NOT going to happen and even if it did, switching tables STILL wouldn't make a difference!.

Bullying does not exist in cash games because no one are scared of losing there stack, they can just buy more chips. It should only be two reasons for some one to leave a table but still keep on paying your session.

1. If you have doubled or tripled up and you got an other reg at your table that has also doubled or tripled up. If you dont belive yourself to play a better deep stack play than your opponent than you can make som costy misstakes.

2. if the fish at your table has left.

I dont really see any reason to "bank gains" because if you are still playing against fish and its no reg deep than you still got effectively the same stack as the fish and the reg. So I never "bank gains".

All right, you don't see any reason to bank gains, that's fair enough. Is there a reason you can explain to me to NOT bank gains?
 
quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
Otherwise known as rat-holing. Many online rooms require you to sit down with the exact stack size you had when you left up until a preset amount of time. For example the room I use, if you're gone from the table more than 30 minutes you can "bank the chips" and start fresh. Or just pick a new table right away.

Lately I've been testing out the Chris Ferguson recommendation of leaving whenever the stack in front of you represents 10% or more of your bankroll. Then you must leave when the blinds reach you. I like this because it isn't generally a hit and run as you'll see a few more hands even if you just fold em all then leave. I also like that it does give you a few hands to win even more or lose some but generally using this method you'll leave with some profit. I'm still working out whether the 10% should represent the BR when I sat down or the current BR number. I think it should be the initial BR at time of seating at the table. Otherwise you're checking your BR over and over which isn't good. Also you don't want this 10% rule to be a set number you must hit before you decide to click "sit out big blind." Because then you're trying hard to hit or exceed that number which might affect play.

I learned a quick lesson in why you need to stick to the BRM rules you set regarding when to leave a table. I more than tripled up in one hand at a table and played 2-3 more hands before the blinds hit me and it was time to leave. I thought hey I might as well stay another orbit or a few more hands. 2 hands later I lost most of that profit. Had I left when my rules dictated I would have had more.

Generally I find if you've doubled or tripled your stack, it many times happens in one or two massive all in hands and then the other player either tilts or leaves. If they leave maybe the easy money left as well. So might as well find a new table. If they tilt you can watch a few hands they play and see if it's time to attack that tilting.

As for someone saying "never play more than 10% of your roll" at a table, that's a bit risky. I never put more than 5% on one table now that I've gotten serious about BRM. And I won't buy in at a table unless the max buy in is 5% or less of my current roll. Only exception is if I'm going to start a new roll from the bottom or scratch I'll play 5% if it's short stacking 5NL when I should be at 2NL. Otherwise the above applies now always.
 
Lheticus

Lheticus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Total posts
1,198
Chips
0
Otherwise known as rat-holing. Many online rooms require you to sit down with the exact stack size you had when you left up until a preset amount of time. For example the room I use, if you're gone from the table more than 30 minutes you can "bank the chips" and start fresh. Or just pick a new table right away.

Lately I've been testing out the Chris Ferguson recommendation of leaving whenever the stack in front of you represents 10% or more of your bankroll. Then you must leave when the blinds reach you. I like this because it isn't generally a hit and run as you'll see a few more hands even if you just fold em all then leave. I also like that it does give you a few hands to win even more or lose some but generally using this method you'll leave with some profit. I'm still working out whether the 10% should represent the BR when I sat down or the current BR number. I think it should be the initial BR at time of seating at the table. Otherwise you're checking your BR over and over which isn't good. Also you don't want this 10% rule to be a set number you must hit before you decide to click "sit out big blind." Because then you're trying hard to hit or exceed that number which might affect play.

I learned a quick lesson in why you need to stick to the BRM rules you set regarding when to leave a table. I more than tripled up in one hand at a table and played 2-3 more hands before the blinds hit me and it was time to leave. I thought hey I might as well stay another orbit or a few more hands. 2 hands later I lost most of that profit. Had I left when my rules dictated I would have had more.

Generally I find if you've doubled or tripled your stack, it many times happens in one or two massive all in hands and then the other player either tilts or leaves. If they leave maybe the easy money left as well. So might as well find a new table. If they tilt you can watch a few hands they play and see if it's time to attack that tilting.

As for someone saying "never play more than 10% of your roll" at a table, that's a bit risky. I never put more than 5% on one table now that I've gotten serious about BRM. And I won't buy in at a table unless the max buy in is 5% or less of my current roll. Only exception is if I'm going to start a new roll from the bottom or scratch I'll play 5% if it's short stacking 5NL when I should be at 2NL. Otherwise the above applies now always.

Interesting points. What sort of percentage of total BR would you recommend since I'm playing it safe maintaining over 40 buy-ins?
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Let's NOT say I'm six tabling I'm gonna be two tabling TOPS. And why would leaving my table then returning to the same one, going to a different one if someone joined in the five seconds it took for me to close the window and click back in (which would happen with a waiting list) but either way, how would what table I'm playing make any dang difference of whether I'm winning or losing unless somehow the only new table I can get into is full of bruisers? And it's not likely that would happen because I'd practically have to be playing a BLIND LEVEL full of bruisers who are better than me, which is NOT going to happen and even if it did, switching tables STILL wouldn't make a difference!.


Then if it makes no difference why bank? :) ... Only reason someone would bank is if they had a bad deep stack play or failed to switch gears. (scared poker)... Should be trying to improve all aspects of ur game, if u keep banking ur failing to improve in an area which could become a leak later in your game.
 
J

JKo2theQQ

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Total posts
112
Chips
0
I would have to agree with some of the other posts that bullying with a big stack doesn't really work that well at micro stakes. many players call, reraise, and chase far too often at these stakes. Also, it seems that they make their decisions before it's their turn to act. If they wanna play that TJo, they are going to play it for 1bb or 25bbs. Many of them are not thinking players and you can't beat someone who isn't playing the same game you are. (read that in a book somewhere). As for leaving to "bank" your winnings, it's not against the law to leave when you are up...It's bad table manners to leave immediately after winning a big hand, but other than that it's all goooood. Just wait the mandatory 30 minutes or so and buy back in with less than you left with.
 
TomLeach

TomLeach

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Total posts
326
Chips
0
I dont see any problem with you doing that, if you feel like you have too much on the table, then leave. However if the table is so good that youve managed to work up +2BIs, then why leave? Only leave if the spewey fish have gone busto and solid players (me ;) ) have sat in their place...
Then just fire up another table, wash rinse, repeat.
Hope this helps.
 
K

Karametric

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Total posts
192
Chips
0
I leave when I double my buyin. Scared tactic, I know, but I have a tendency to start to get a little too loose at that point.
 
Zorba

Zorba

27
Platinum Level
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Total posts
41,800
Awards
15
AQ
Chips
169
What you are describing is called Ratholing.

http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Ratholing

All right, all right...but I still don't know what potential benefits there would be to actually building a large stack rather than banking gains. I find it hard to believe they're aren't ANY so I'm hoping someone can go into this a bit.

The benefit is if there are other big stacks and you get them all in your profit will be higher if you win, you might win 3 or many more buy ins instead of 1.

.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Total posts
2,665
Awards
1
Chips
7
I should clarify my post then as you didnt get it.

Most online poker rooms dont let you do this. you need to buy back in with he same amount you stood up with.
 
B

braveboat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Total posts
139
Chips
0
When I manage to build my stack up to 3 or 4x, I find myself playing scared and/or more loosely than I usually do. What remedies are available?

1) Learn to play deep stacked. Probably the right answer, over all.

Playing scared is a lack of confidence (ironic given the large stack won!) This is a leak for me; you can't ever play scared. I think too much about my bankroll when I'm playing, and that's really the issue.

Loosening up can be right, but not playing against the odds.

2) I don't see banking the gains by leaving the table as the wrong answer. If you're not playing your best game, it's time to stop playing.

As far as bullying goes, I agree with the posters that it's hard to do at the micro's. Folks just call too lightly. TAG play is fine, but bluffing is probably -EV at this level.
 
Top