What's considered a great winning rate at 20NL?

Thinker_145

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Playing 400 hands/hour what win rate would you deem as "awesome" and what minimum sample would you want to see before declaring that?

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pokervike

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I would strongly consider a profitable stretch much like a sailboat that caught wind. Be thankful you didn't tip over and drowned in the sea.

From comments you had on another thread about dissecting a hand I can understand your taking your poker seriously so if I may be so bold about 'stressing the max' for stats and other things related to stringing sessions together is the fact that if we are always stressing maximums sooner or later we find what also breaks. What may be your favorite flavor others may spit on the floor for a correct amount of hands played to declare to certain victory. It sounds like your playing six tables at once to get an avg. of 400 hph? At 20? I guessing your actually saying 0.10-.020? Are they 6max, are they a 'fast table' and your only needing 4 tables? Both factors considering, I think are important because of playing a read and playing on math based decisions can generate different outcomes for short and long term tracking depending on how many tables your on unless your using table ninja (which would also be valuable). Please understand what I mentioned above was not to be sarcastic but rather take your good swing with a smile and don't drift so high in the air that would make you spew it back when you return to the earth. Stringing profit is GREAT it's the moments we live for after hours of draining discussions, swallowing our pride, protecting hands controlling pots and hammering the gas in a multi-way pot with the stone cold nuts! Be happy about it, but you also seem knowledgeable enough about it to know where you are right now. I've found myself in too many spots of jumping in stakes after 2 weeks of this type of thing to go up and pistol whip the next (or even 2 higher) to find variance waiting at the door with a donkey crying about a stolen purse.... Just a reminder about the cards and just how mean the deck is.

GL on the felt
 
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pokervike

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To answer your question after thinking more about 'how to answer this based on what your doing'. I'd say 8k should give you enough insight on how you acted after some "no-F'n-way" bad beats, hitting double monsters, sitting with stacks on right, stacks on left types of variables to give you enough to sleep on at night. You might journal things in your life as they contribute long term for profit also. If you happen to find that after going to the library and eating ice-cream with your dog is more profitable then I'd join a book club and subscribe to 'ice-cream of the month' Keep in mind a 'coach' told me that 10k is an important number to use until I have 20k then 40k and so on to use. After that your size samples can be compared back and forth and in different spots to define your 'regular style' is doing regular things for you.
 
Thinker_145

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I would strongly consider a profitable stretch much like a sailboat that caught wind. Be thankful you didn't tip over and drowned in the sea.

From comments you had on another thread about dissecting a hand I can understand your taking your poker seriously so if I may be so bold about 'stressing the max' for stats and other things related to stringing sessions together is the fact that if we are always stressing maximums sooner or later we find what also breaks. What may be your favorite flavor others may spit on the floor for a correct amount of hands played to declare to certain victory. It sounds like your playing six tables at once to get an avg. of 400 hph? At 20? I guessing your actually saying 0.10-.020? Are they 6max, are they a 'fast table' and your only needing 4 tables? Both factors considering, I think are important because of playing a read and playing on math based decisions can generate different outcomes for short and long term tracking depending on how many tables your on unless your using table ninja (which would also be valuable). Please understand what I mentioned above was not to be sarcastic but rather take your good swing with a smile and don't drift so high in the air that would make you spew it back when you return to the earth. Stringing profit is GREAT it's the moments we live for after hours of draining discussions, swallowing our pride, protecting hands controlling pots and hammering the gas in a multi-way pot with the stone cold nuts! Be happy about it, but you also seem knowledgeable enough about it to know where you are right now. I've found myself in too many spots of jumping in stakes after 2 weeks of this type of thing to go up and pistol whip the next (or even 2 higher) to find variance waiting at the door with a donkey crying about a stolen purse.... Just a reminder about the cards and just how mean the deck is.

GL on the felt

Yes I am talking about 0.10/0.20. I play mix FR and 6 max tables but all normal speed.

I have played poker for a long time but I feel now is the time I have finally over come my extreme tilting habit so now my win rate can accurately show how good or bad a player I really am.

I actually played 0.25/0.50 having built enough bankroll through the lower levels but I tilted much of it away. So I made a goal that I am gonna only play 20NL until I have the discipline to show a great win rate over a big sample of hands. I once again have the bankroll to play 50NL but I am going to keep playing 20NL for now.

Yes I take my poker very seriously I honestly don't play online poker for fun as I don't find playing 6 tables much fun. I'll either be very good at poker or I'll quit, time will tell. Thank you for your input. :)

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pokervike

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I know of a few multi table guys who have the math nailed to the floor. I'll ask and get back to you. I appreciate your second part to this. It helps me understand where you're at compared to myself. I'm much better at table value than I am at volume value so I only play two at most. I think you and I are alike in the fact that we would both die with a knife in our hands but the blood on the floor is somebody else's. I should have solid answers for you tonight.
 
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pokervike

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After a couple of un-answered phone calls a text came in this morning from a friend of mine who is now a brick player/grinder after black friday. Here is his text (
at those stakes the variance over even 1000 hands can be very misleading but there have been times I ran FTP @ .50-1, 8 Tables, 150h per session and hit +65bb/100h so that's $57 per table and $456 for the day. That's 'GOD MODE' and I stayed at those stakes because I never seemed to have that bad of a day when I hit coolers. Jxxxx never needed to go over .10-.20 because he's a freak and ran 16t 200h nightly and had an avg. of +35bb/100.
) I did the math for this and that's $224 per day for around a year. I know they were both 7 days a week and didn't get too crazy about spending profits on big buy-in MTT's or anything that would diminish profits. They shared a BR and living expenses for around 2.5 years. Those guys are the only two people I know personally that were full time players for incomes from cash games. They still play. The first is found around MI or IN playing 1/2 or 2/5 any given time or day. The second got married and has sense experienced my trouble of balancing both family and grind. He also is found at the tables during the weekends and had transitioned to MTT's but still sits at the 1/2 tables if he has the time.
 
Thinker_145

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That sounds like crazy win rate not sure if I even believe it without proof.
 
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thatgreekdude

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A GREAT wr? 10-15bb/100 would be GREAT.
 
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pokervike

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That sounds like crazy win rate not sure if I even believe it without proof.

I thought that sounded high too. For both. IDK if the 65/100 for the week was a personal best or what. The 35/100 for 16t seems epic also. I do know that it was in the middle of the poker explosion and the skill by most players just wasn't there. As mentioned, it was a text. So I didn't get a chance to talk with him directly. Playing no more than two tables I'm very happy with anything around 40bb/100 for a week but I'm also more focused on players being at 1-2t. I'm probably peek at 1000h/week. If it wasn't a friend of mine that I didn't know for sure was winning on a regular basis I would have a hard time believing it too. Another person I know has mentioned in the past to try and focus on 21-26bb/100 as a bench mark. Anything over that and your risking too much. Anything under and your not aggressive enough. So much of the 'personal truth' in online poker is hard to believe. Anybody can re-create an excel spreadsheet to have PT4 appearance and I trust sharkscope as much as I trust Jeffrey Dohmer to running a daycare. I'd still suggest to hit your rhythm and try adjusting your river value or sizing your 3b pre to hit an optimal number. 5k should provide some decent samples as you develop before you jump back up. Also, I'm not certain which rooms you frequent but BCP .10-.20 is pretty loose for calling if that helps.

GL
 
Thinker_145

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You win 40bb/100 playing 2 tables? I suppose I would also win more on 2 tables but again I don't think I'll be hitting 40.

Remember I am not talking about peak numbers a 1000 hands is nothing. I am talking about the general average win rate that a player might have.

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A consistent 10bb would be amazing at any stakes, I'd think.
 
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JJW87

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Personally I would say over 100k + hands if you could maintain a WR of 10BB/100 (big blinds not big bets) then that IMO would be considered a very good win rate.
 
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JJW87

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I would also say though that if you can beat this level for 5+ BB/100 over 50k or so hands and have a sufficient BR to move up then I would move up.

I also play on I-Poker and have played the 20NL tables and the 50NL tables and although the regs do seem a little better at 50NL there are still plenty of fish to be found.

As long as you don't get into reg wars and start going out of your way to try and outplay the regs, just stick to playing your normal game and isolate the fish whenever possible and profit of their mistakes you will do just as well at 50.
 
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ProJK

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I have more than 2M hands on 25NL on pokerstars.eu and I think that 6-10BB/100 is sick WR.
 
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pokervike

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You win 40bb/100 playing 2 tables? I suppose I would also win more on 2 tables but again I don't think I'll be hitting 40.

Remember I am not talking about peak numbers a 1000 hands is nothing. I am talking about the general average win rate that a player might have.

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After giving this some more thought it would be good for me to try and get back into regular BR grinding. I'm currently waiting for a withdraw from Carbon as if fear it will turn to dust if I don't get it out soon. I would like to play acr/bcp as a regular thing again within two weeks time. Why don't we keep in touch with this topic and see for ourselves over some long term ranges are plus be able to compare win rates between 1/2t and 5/6? I've always been interested in knowing that myself. Recently I've purchased pt4 but haven't had much of a chance to use it yet. I'm confident enough in using a HUD and this could provide both of us a chance to dig up our own games and find improvements. Long term would be more of a 90-180 day stretch then.
 
Thinker_145

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Sounds good man you can always leave me a personal message and I am always here at the boards. Good luck to you.
 
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