What's with the big all in ?

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enesem

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so, playing NL25, and having a lot of fun.

I have noticed a trend I haven't seen much, the Big All In.

Basically goes like this:

First Bet: 3bb
First Raiser: 6 - 9 bb
Big All In: 100bb (or more if stack is bigger).

It seems like a strange tactic, but it's definitely something a lot of players use. Does anyone here do this ?

If I face this, I just fold, it seems like a waste of a hand.

I was wondering if someone could explain the reasoning behind it - is it bluffing or hoping to get looked up ?

Sometimes it's tempting to call, especially if I have been the first raiser and have something playable.

Any thoughts ?
 
IPlay

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You can see these hands on Bovada and the couple times it happened to me I think they had Aj and Ak. Stupid play though and not worth the risk.
 
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SwiftHax

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It does seem odd, but if see players doing this I loosen my callling range.
Although, most of the time these guys are shortstacks.
 
akaRobbo

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Usually see it with shortstacks or they could just be tilted?

Getting 4-bet shoved is one to look out for though if you're holding a high pair, it's often AK or AQ.
 
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enesem

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Not tilting, at least not the ones I see - just seems to be play they sometimes make, like they have read it somewhere as a valid play and so it gets thrown in.

Odd.
 
transformpoker

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Typically, these types of larger all-in bets are attempting to exploit an overly wide range from both the pre-flop raiser and the pre-flop re-raiser (with much more weight on the pre-flop re-raiser's tendencies).

The benefit to the over bet in this instance is that it greatly incentivizes a fold from the original pre-flop raiser who only has 3 big blinds invested, while also forcing the pre-flop re-raiser to call or fold. Because the all-in player can no longer fold, he does not need to worry about being re-bluffed by an aggressive opponent.

Typical hands that do this have solid equity when called and are looking to take advantage of folding out a lot of value re-raises against the pre-flop raiser that aren't quite strong enough to call off the remaining 81 big blinds to potentially win the 112 big blind pot (assuming the pre-flop raiser folds).

A good example of a hand that might take this line is something like AJs or 66. Cold four betting (re-re-raising) to a smaller size may be profitable, but like we mentioned, opens the four bettor to being re-bluffed and put into a close decision with these types of marginal hands. If the four bettor (the re-re-raiser) determines that he has enough folding equity to make up for his likely relatively poor equity the times that he is called (likely by a range of JJ+/AK), then the play has merit.

Negatives of the play are that it is difficult or non-sensical to balance in many ways. In other words, you only have so many combinations of AA pre-flop and you usually want to play them in the most valuable way, which is probably going to allow for your opponent to bluff you off of a potentially weaker holding. So you probably don't see many people making this bet with AA or KK, and that means hands like AQs go up in value when facing this type of all-in. It also means that if you want to adapt this strategy that you need to understand if your opponent is capable of calling off bets lightly. The more capable your opponent is, the better off you are going with the more deceptive strategy of four betting to a smaller size (typically around 20-27 big blinds) and allowing your opponent to make a larger mistake of flatting a dominated hand or re-bluffing with a very weak hand like A5s too often against your strong range.

With this type of strategy, you're basically saying "hey, I have a decent hand, what do you have?". So unless your opponent(s) are just going wild pre-flop, it's usually going to best to opt for the more deceptive play. If you see someone doing this regularly against you, then you may want to tighten up your re-raising range for value against particular players and/or call slightly lighter than your pot odds suggest because you're more likely up against a weaker range than the size of the bet suggests.
 
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Swickster007

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The big all in happens a lot...I think it's just people trying to steal the pot with their confidence in a KQ hand. It's sometimes worth calling if you have a high pocket pair, but a lot of AK hands will shove and then you're all in is all hoping they don't hit.
 
LD1977

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It is all a matter of ranges. If you 3bet a lot yet only stack off KK+ for 100bb, yes they can shove any Ace like this, especially if it is suited - most of the time you fold and the rest of the time they still have some equity.
 
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enesem

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Interesting, great answers - thank you.
 
DaveE

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Ace face shoves nearly every time in this case. Basically +EV to call with AK or QQ+ if not just let it go. They're just hoping to sucker someone in early. If they happen to run into a monster they're toast.

The potential gains are tiny compared to potential elimination so early in the tourney.
 
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most of the times a big allin is a bluff or a semibluff, especially when the bigstack has smelled the blood of his victim, i mean when he smells the fear, he goes and shoves expecting the shortstack to fold, anyway if he loses his stack wont suffer a real damage so he just does if for this reason too,
 
DaveE

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Most of what I've seen are open shoves for way over 50bbs. Just asking to get creamed for very minimal gains.
 
punctual

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I will do this sometimes when, for example, the first raiser is shortstacked, I am deep stacked, and another player in it with us is medium-stacked. My intention is usually to get the medium stacked player to fold so I am going head to head with the short stack.

On the other hand, I have heard about this sort of thing happening in a dishonest game too (i.e. collusion). if there are two players at the table who are friends they can share their hole cards with each other byusing either an instant messenger or, more covertly, software which allows each other to see each other's screens in realtime. In this case, they wait for a player (the victim) to raise or call and then one of the perpetrators raises and then the other immediately reraises or goes all-in. This gives the player who is the victim a sense that his hand may not be as strong as the hands of the two raisers in the hand so he will fold in most cases. If three or more players are colluding like this, the ploy becomes even more difficult to successfully survive.

So this is the danger with sit and goes. With large MTT's, it would take a hell of a lot of collusion to accomplish something like this. With cash games, it is even easier because you get to actually choose your seat. So both perpetrators can sit where they want in relation to the victim in order to maximize their colluding strategy.

So my advice would be to be careful with SNG's and CASH games.....
 
LD1977

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What is with the spam?

This is a cash game question in cash game forum. Nobody gives a crap about fish shoving random crap in donkaments.
 
DaveE

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What is with the spam?

This is a cash game question in cash game forum. Nobody gives a crap about fish shoving random crap in donkaments.

Actually people do. But yeah, you're right, cash game question, missed that:)
 
Karozi615

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At 25nl this move is AA 80% of the time and sometimes KK or QQ. Players do it because it looks really strange and you'd be surprised how often players call those bets. Also if you are strong I guess it increases the chance of a mod click call or if somebody selected "call any" their in for a big surprise
 
Karozi615

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The thing is, shoving with AA has a positive yield but actually playing them correctly will give you an optimal expected value (you make the most money possible)
 
A

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ive seen this move a lot on micros and ive never really understood why lol Ive seen people shove 200BB stacks in to a 5BB pot lol

One possible explanation is that theyre putting a lot of weight behind villains stats on their HUD. They see a raise from a tight player and shove their monster hoping to get called?

I only had poker tracker for a month trial but i had a couple of spots where a nit 3-bet and i had AA. So i open-shoved a 100+BB stack and each time got called by KK. This was zoom so the stats were vital.

Just my 2 cents worth lol
 
Thinker_145

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I do it many times with AK and there are several reasons for it. If I make a big 4-bet someone might call hoping to set mine me especially in position. Now when I miss my hand with AK do I really take the risk of making a large C-bet on the flop OOP?

What happens if you get called by 22-QQ? Well generally a big stack reg is only gonna call with QQ and rarely with JJ-TT. You are not losing too much money in the long term against those hands. What happens if someone has AA or KK? Well too bad then but the odds of that are extremely low. Your KK will be dominated by AA more than the situation of being against KK-AA with AK. And really the only true disaster is AA vs AK, you still have reasonable equity against KK.

Now what are the benefits? You will just pick the pot right there most of the times. Then at least at 5NL and 10NL there are LOTS of fish who will call you with Ax hands especially AQ and that's what makes this REALLY worth it. There are also small stack fish who might call you with small pairs but its alright again you are not losing much money.

Maybe at 25NL this isn't a profitable thing to do as I haven't played on that level and can't comment on the fishiness.
 
LD1977

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Well I can. I only started playing recently but I have a good idea on the environment.

People are saying how Stars is difficult blah blah but my impressions are that regular 25NL is massively fish infested. On FTP there are fish of course but player pool is small and there is a number of competent regs there who play pretty much all tables so they can't be avoided.

Zoom players are much better on average but even there it isn't exactly rocket science (even though I am losing at the moment but sample is small so not really that big a deal :p).


Why am I saying 25NL is full of fish?

Well, in regular 25NL at the moment as preflop raiser when I see flop without being all in:
- Flop cbet success: 33% (I cbet 66% which is pretty normal for my relatively tight opening ranges.)
- Turn cbet success: 27%
- WTSD = 48% (!!!)
- W$SD = 58% (!!!)

My standard cbet size is around 67% which is within normal ranges. Having both of the showdown stats so high is unprecedented and I started from zero on FTP, meaning I went through 2NL, 5NL, 10NL and 25NL.

Now, I do have some criteria for picking tables but nothing complicated (and I don't have a lot of stats on individual players). People just don't know where the fold button is located. Note all this was played during the week, I am already drooling about the weekend :D too bad I am losing half of Sunday on other obligations.

Anyway, back to the big 4bet AI thing - have a proper 3betting/stackoff range and it is not the issue, you can't be exploited by these shoves.

Edit: So far I actually never faced a 4bet after my 3bet from a 3rd party but from what I have seen people 4bet pocket pairs a lot. I think reasonable 4bet shoving range for small and medium stacks should include AK too, it does well against loose PFR + light 3bettor combo.
 
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IPlay

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At 25nl this move is AA 80% of the time and sometimes KK or QQ. Players do it because it looks really strange and you'd be surprised how often players call those bets. Also if you are strong I guess it increases the chance of a mod click call or if somebody selected "call any" their in for a big surprise

I have seen this happen on Bovada about 5 times and everytime it was AJ-AK 1010 or JJ. I review every hand and can say(from a small sample size) I never saw anyone play AA that way. Oh, and I am talking about 100BB shoves, not short stackers shoving 40BBs
 
vnonline

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I'm usually in this case in many hands. If you wanna know why they did that, you should try it 1 or 2 times and feel what they felt. I used this way few times and I only do that at the begining of the tournament when I had really really good cards then hope someone think I'm crazy and call me even they have medium cards or bad maybe (It works sometimes :D )
Anyway, I think you should be careful with these people, some can be real crazy but some can be fake. good luck! :D
 
pokertoi

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I think it's basically people figuring AA can't lose, and sometimes it's the any suited cards and sometimes it's a case of big stack bullies. However some folks are just trying to steal the blinds.
 
LD1977

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Yeah it is rarely AA I think... I would say a small cold 4bet is far more likely to be AA (the idea being to suck 3bettor in for more money and getting rid of the PFR).
 
suby_rafael

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Well this type of play is a weak one in my view. To do such a thing lets us know that the player is a weak post flop player. That is why he wants to get his money in pre flop not necessarily with a super premium hand. So they can be trapped easily or outplayed post flop.
So always try and peel a flop and u can peel off a wide range against these players in position because they will so often make a mistake post flop with a single pair or over pair or even a draw sometimes.
 
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