What percentage of poker cash game players can beat 2NL?

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I read somewhere that 75% of poker players lose money. Many of these losing players are actually decent and capable of beating micro stakes games, but the reason they lose is because they play at stakes far too high for their own ability.

Which then begs the question: what percentage of players could beat 2NL (at the current level 2NL runs)? Are there many 25NL+ players who are incapable of beating 2NL?
 
LD1977

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I am pretty sure everyone can beat 2NL if he/she really wants it. There is enough free money floating around from people who don't care.
 
horizon12

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100% player can beat 2nl, need only a little bit of learning.
 
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100% player can beat 2nl, need only a little bit of learning.

I disagree with this. The 2NL games I play at pokerstars are fairly tough and there are more regs than there are fish / recreational players (this could be due to the fact that I don't table select, though). I've actually found that $1/$3 live poker is fishier than 1c/2c online (or maybe the players in Melbourne are just a lot worse than the Russian/Ukrainian/German players I encounter on PokerStars).

But I don't think that just anyone could come in and consistently beat 2NL online. I think it does take a bit of intelligence, some mathematical understanding about pot odds, draws and equity, and an ability to think logically and reconstruct past actions to narrow down hand ranges. Not everyone can do that.
 
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luchoq10

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i think with a little study, all the people can beat NL2, also its true that in many casinos the level is very low if one raise and one call, all the table call... and the raises are x6 or more higher
 
LD1977

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I disagree with this. The 2NL games I play at PokerStars are fairly tough and there are more regs than there are fish / recreational players (this could be due to the fact that I don't table select, though). I've actually found that $1/$3 live poker is fishier than 1c/2c online (or maybe the players in Melbourne are just a lot worse than the Russian/Ukrainian/German players I encounter on PokerStars).

But I don't think that just anyone could come in and consistently beat 2NL online. I think it does take a bit of intelligence, some mathematical understanding about pot odds, draws and equity, and an ability to think logically and reconstruct past actions to narrow down hand ranges. Not everyone can do that.

Use a HUD and play pure exploitative style.
 
AlfieAA

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it only takes level 2 thinking to beat 2nl....

just because there are more 'regs' on stars than other sites doesn't make it any harder...just more regfish mixed with all the other terrible players, but that's about it.
 
theboss

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2nl is beatable. There are some good micro grinders though on stars. You said it yourself about table selection that is important. I just think that since I grinded those limits in the past you wont be able to make enough profit for your time to be worth it. Even if i decided to grind it up from the bottom at this moment I would start at least from 5nl if not 10nl to be honest.
 
jazzaxe

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It would be hard to classify any 2NL player as a "reg". The reason they are there is that they are playing with scared money and that is why there are so many weak/tight opponents. You rarely see 3 betting and they all look for reasons to fold after the flop.
 
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wildice13

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2NL can be beat by the people that have the determination to do it. Though the players on pokerstars shouldn't be underestimated. 2NL is MUCH harder than £100NL live by some considerable distance. Which makes one think, is it worth putting in all that volume to grind up through the micros, when really you could 9/10 times go to the casino and win at least twice what you could in a month at 2nl
 
Aces2w1n

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I disagree with this. The 2NL games I play at PokerStars are fairly tough and there are more regs than there are fish / recreational players (this could be due to the fact that I don't table select, though). I've actually found that $1/$3 live poker is fishier than 1c/2c online (or maybe the players in Melbourne are just a lot worse than the Russian/Ukrainian/German players I encounter on PokerStars).

But I don't think that just anyone could come in and consistently beat 2NL online. I think it does take a bit of intelligence, some mathematical understanding about pot odds, draws and equity, and an ability to think logically and reconstruct past actions to narrow down hand ranges. Not everyone can do that.

I'm aussie as well (melb as well)... You just need to go on early mornings to realise how easy it is.

I find that at our night our aussies who play are people who are eager to better themselves, and there is less rec players they all play at pubs cuz they are scared of online.
 
Aces2w1n

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I can safely say I can beat 2NL but it wasn't easy.

Will be interesting climbing up stars to see how far I can go. I see a lot of ppl posting on higher levels thinking they shouldn't be there.
 
ScooperNova

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It would be hard to classify any 2NL player as a "reg". The reason they are there is that they are playing with scared money and that is why there are so many weak/tight opponents. You rarely see 3 betting and they all look for reasons to fold after the flop.

I see 3 betting out the wazoo and tons of maniacs.
 
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Lexxx

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What´s is "2NL"? Sorry for the dumb question...
 
rastapapolos

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What´s is "2NL"? Sorry for the dumb question...
2NL = sb 0.01$ and bb 0.02$
5NL = sb 0.02$ and bb 0.05$
100NL = sb 0.5$ and bb 1$
and so on....
 
rastapapolos

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to beat the NL2 you have to be on the level 2 of thinking don't bluff much and play very tight. anyone can beat this limit with some discipline
 
Latamgrinder

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100% player can beat 2nl, need only a little bit of learning.
I disagree with this.
Pretty sure i can teach my 85 year old grannie to beat NL2


The 2NL games I play at PokerStars are fairly tough
...there are more regs than there are fish / recreational players
...this could be due to the fact that I don't table select, though.
lol to all this
But I don't think that just anyone could come in and consistently beat 2NL online. I think it does take a bit of intelligence, some mathematical understanding about pot odds, draws and equity, and an ability to think logically and reconstruct past actions to narrow down hand ranges. Not everyone can do that.
All it takes is ABC strategy, trust me, it does, but u have made your mind about it and you look like the type of guy that once they do that its hard for anybody to convince you otherwise, post some graph, basic reports to check your stats and sample size to get you a much better feedback about your game and leaks you may have, cheers.
 
Latamgrinder

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What´s is "2NL"? Sorry for the dumb question...
Basically all the stakes are named like that cuz it asumes what its called "one full buy in" which is basically 100 big blinds, so...

For NL2 is $0.01/$0.02 cuz $0.02 x 100 = $2
For NL10 is $0.05/$0.10 cuz $0.10 x 100 = $10

And so on, but there are other strategies like the Mid Stack Strategy or MSS on which people play with 40bb-50bb and to them, 40bb-50bb is "one full buy in", but they still all the stake NL2 and NL10, cheers.
 
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Lexxx

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Basically all the stakes are named like that cuz it asumes what its called "one full buy in" which is basically 100 big blinds, so...

For NL2 is $0.01/$0.02 cuz $0.02 x 100 = $2
For NL10 is $0.05/$0.10 cuz $0.10 x 100 = $10

And so on, but there are other strategies like the Mid Stack Strategy or MSS on which people play with 40bb-50bb and to them, 40bb-50bb is "one full buy in", but they still all the stake NL2 and NL10, cheers.

Tx to you too buddy! I apreciate that! Good luck and have a nice week!!!
 
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razzor94

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Get familiar with the TAG style of play, dont bluff and table select. Those would be the 3 things i would advize anyone starting to grind at 2NL. Watch some videos from Blackrain79. He is an expert in beating micro stakes and you can find his videos on youtube which means they are free.
 
6

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Pretty sure i can teach my 85 year old grannie to beat NL2





lol to all this

All it takes is ABC strategy, trust me, it does, but u have made your mind about it and you look like the type of guy that once they do that its hard for anybody to convince you otherwise, post some graph, basic reports to check your stats and sample size to get you a much better feedback about your game and leaks you may have, cheers.

I do post graphs and I ask for help analysing my hands all the time. The problem is that a lot of the advice that people give me contradicts other advice. For instance, they'll look at my HUD stats and tell me I need to be more aggressive, then I'll show them specific hands and they'll tell me that I play with mindless aggression and that I need to do less betting and more check/calling. When I look at xflixx (Felix Schneiders), he has very similar VPIP/PFR/3bet stats to me, except he beats 2NL 6-max ZOOM with a 40bb/100 win rate, whereas I struggle to break even. I actually think that my biggest leak is that I need to bet less and fold more. I need to be more tight passive. Because tight passive is exactly the style of play that most of the Youtube instructors who beat 2NL ZOOM play. They always recommend seeing as many flops as possible, not 3betting too much, and just playing exploitative poker, rather than your usual TAG style that works better for $1/$2 live.

I don't think that TAG works at all for this style of game. TAG works for regular tables and it works for live cash games, but against nits, I think that playing aggressively is just digging yourself a hole. C-betting the flop is good sometimes, but being aggressive implies bluffing and barreling, which doesn't seem to work at all for this game. Saying "TAG but don't bluff much" is a contradiction. You're either aggressive or you don't bluff, not both. Aggressive players bluff.

Also I definitely think that my timezone puts me at a disadvantage. During the hours I play, there are usually around 300 players on 2NL 6-max ZOOM, but during the hours I'm asleep, there are 1200+ players on that game format. More players online usually results in lower quality of play. Like the recreational players hang around the busy hours, whereas the stronger players hang around both the busy and the quiet hours, meaning that the quiet hours are full of stronger players.

If you're willing to make a video proving you can crush 2NL 6-max ZOOM on PokerStars then I will definitely watch that, especially if you can do it during the hours when there are less players around (and hence less fish).
 
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Average field skill at POKERSTARS nl2 nl2zoom - is higher then in any other room... I've noticed it switching from nl2 at fulltilt or 888
and i agree that 75% is loosing players (i gues even more)
I read statistics - only 5% are winning players and 2% are good regs
 
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Celticsthug

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It's much tougher than you'd ever imagine

I was a live tournament player and made the move to live cash games after a few years. I actually was a pretty average/poor player and just relied a lot on awareness and picking spots. I ran really well one year and won over 180K USD online and at the wsop (won a ticket).

It wasn't until I'd been playing for a few years and realized that I'd never bothered to study the game. My only study was some basic books and watching WSOP/WPT/HSP episodes and thinking about how each player was thinking about the hand.

I moved to cash games and primarily played 1-2 and 2-3. I was break even in 2/3 for at least a year.

I was always working during this period and money wasn't an issue so there was no financial pressure- poker was a hobby and something I thought I was pretty good at.

Anyway, I started online at 10NL and realized I could play 25NL pretty safely without being outclassed- but the 25NL games were about as tough as a
5-10 game at my local casino. You just have no idea how much tougher online poker is compared to live poker. They are two different animals and online players are the predators.

Anyway, I broke even at 25NL for about 70K hands at 6 max.
I then decided to get a coach after quitting my job with a huge bankroll.
My aim has been to get as good at poker as possible while still working on the side in my business. (Work 3 or 4 days a week, grind online 2-3 days a week.)
Coaching was the key for me to improve. My coach pointed out so many things that I had no idea about. I realized that in any game other than 2/3 at my local casino, I was probably going to break even in the long run at best...The good news is that I adjusted to online quite quickly and started playing full ring games on stars because they were closer to the full ring games I could crush at my casino.

Anyway, I've had coaching since April 2nd (over 7 months) and I've played 93,400 hands. It's been a slow grind, but I'm beating 25NL fullring for 3.98bb/100. That's $929.12 profit over almost 100K hands, not including FPP bonuses lol. Just a painful learning experience and reality check about my poker knowledge.
The good news is that looking back at my 93K hands I can see so many mistakes and spots where I just dumped money and spewed it away with small mistakes. I'll probably play at least 50K more hands at 25NL and see if I can get the winrate up over 5bb.
My coach says I'm ready to take on 100NL and skip 50NL but it's too big of a jump for me at this stage. I want to eliminate variance as much as possible.

My goal is to move up to 100NL and perhaps eventually play 200NL full ring, whilst hiring a manager to run my business for me.

Some key pieces of advice for anyone who wants to get better:
-find a coach or a fellow player that is better than you and get them to challenge your thinking and how you play hands.
-study your previous sessions and go over your mistakes. What positions are you losing money from?
-invest in a HUD and learn it.
-don't be afraid of getting it all in with QQ and even JJ against particular regs who love shoving- these hands are such a huge favorite over the range of most of these shoving regs and I see so many rocks folding these great starting hands when they are probably up against AK 90% of the time.
-find the fish and play pots with them. Position is preferable, especially if there are other regs at the table- but make sure you play against players who are looser and worse than you.
-Keep scouting games while you're playing. Sit down at a table, play a hand and then sit out so you can get more info while you get a coffee/lunch. This is datamining that you need.
-try and think one level higher than you are. Challenge yourself.
-When it's checked to you in a multiway pot and you've got 2 soft/passive opponent rocks doing the checking, then fire away. Fold equity is so huge in poker. Look for spots to steal small pots against tight/soft regs who are too scared to bluff out of position.
-stop calling with mediocre hands out of position preflop unless there is a huge fish. It's better to raise preflop and take the pot down with aggression and initiative against a reg's cutoff open. Obviously try and balance your % range when doing this. Don't just defend your blinds, attack his wide cutoff opens. Then when you have position on him, attack him some more. You need to make your opponents scared of you with your aggression and initiative. Regnits HATE playing out of position against even slightly aggressive players.
-take a shot at the next stakes up. If you're playing 5NL, make one of your tables a 10NL table while the other 5 tables are 5NL. Baby steps.
- understand the value of draws and the equity of draws in position. They are very very powerful and often have as much equity as 2 pair!!!

Don't give up. Do what you gotta do. See you at 200NL. :cool:
 
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joe777

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Get familiar with the TAG style of play, dont bluff and table select. Those would be the 3 things i would advize anyone starting to grind at 2NL. Watch some videos from Blackrain79. He is an expert in beating micro stakes and you can find his videos on youtube which means they are free.

The video is interesting and educational,nice.:top:
 
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