What percentage do you sit down with at a cash table?

Tomthebomb

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Right now I have set aside a small amount of cash at FTP for playing mini-stakes cash games. I have been doing well in the last week, and I am hoping throughout this weekend I can grind out some non-regulars.

Since I work overnights I find myself playing at 6am - 12pm after a 8 hour shift.....assuming at that time that the only people that are playing are grinders, I hope that the field will be weaker today.

I have been sitting on 2-3 tables with 5% on each table. Do you feel I should decrease this amount?:cool:
 
Egon Towst

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5% is fine as a general rule.

However, if you are multi-tabling, keep it modest and remain well within your ability to monitor the play on them all. Take care not to open too many tables and lose focus so that you start losing on all of them. Your BR could take a big hit quickly that way.
 
Tomthebomb

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Thanks ET.

I don't always use 5% of the remaining bankroll.

Do you prefer to buy in for the max, or 1/2?

once you're bankroll is irrelevant to your limit level.

I have been testing out playing aggressive with low stacks...seems to get callers with the widest of ranges. Allows me to risk less too.

Ill sit with 3% or 3.5%, just to see how the action differentiates.

Seems you seem more opposing KJ-66-A9 hands like that...only a small sample size though...
 
TPC

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Always buy in for the max at a table. Don't go in assuming you can risk less. If you get a monster hand and flop you can only win a small amount with a short stack. Your chip stack in a weapon, even in ring games. If you buy in for half a buy in you are only hurting yourself.
 
Egon Towst

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Do you prefer to buy in for the max, or 1/2?


There are two viable ways of approaching this. You should either buy in for the maximum (for normal play) or for just 20x BB if you are intending to play short-stack (which requires a different strategy and hand selection).

There is no benefit in buying in for half. That would fall between two worlds and give you the worst of both. As Trigga says, it would limit your winnings when you hit a big hand playing deep-stack. On the other hand, it would be too deep for playing an effective short-stack strategy.
 
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Unlike triggalos i,m a very conservative player...i dont look for the one good kill...i look to constantly,and slowly improve my positions on various sites,i,m not saying there is anything at all wrong with his stategy..it just isnt the one i employ.I look long before i sit,i,m looking for a table with a majority of stacks larger than what i will enter with.I have preset the amount i,m looking to take from the table..usually double or triple my buy in....once i hit this mark i,m gone.I dont get involved in many hands...if the the few i elect to play dont pan out i leave....my winnings usually unremarkable and the same with my losses...i try to improve each site by 10-20% a week...i,m 3 for4 this week using the good old patented short stack stick n move strategy...hope it helps...oh i typically buy in for 25 big blinds.
 
Theblueduce

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I use a rule of thumb of no more than 5% of my entire bankroll.
 
Jurn8

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Unlike triggalos i,m a very conservative player...i dont look for the one good kill...i look to constantly,and slowly improve my positions on various sites,i,m not saying there is anything at all wrong with his stategy..it just isnt the one i employ.I look long before i sit,i,m looking for a table with a majority of stacks larger than what i will enter with.I have preset the amount i,m looking to take from the table..usually double or triple my buy in....once i hit this mark i,m gone.I dont get involved in many hands...if the the few i elect to play dont pan out i leave....my winnings usually unremarkable and the same with my losses...i try to improve each site by 10-20% a week...i,m 3 for4 this week using the good old patented short stack stick n move strategy...hope it helps...oh i typically buy in for 25 big blinds.

If you are doubling up and gone, this is called rat holing and very much hated by regs lol
 
TPC

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Unlike triggalos i,m a very conservative player...i dont look for the one good kill...i look to constantly,and slowly improve my positions on various sites,i,m not saying there is anything at all wrong with his stategy..it just isnt the one i employ.I look long before i sit,i,m looking for a table with a majority of stacks larger than what i will enter with.I have preset the amount i,m looking to take from the table..usually double or triple my buy in....once i hit this mark i,m gone.I dont get involved in many hands...if the the few i elect to play dont pan out i leave....my winnings usually unremarkable and the same with my losses...i try to improve each site by 10-20% a week...i,m 3 for4 this week using the good old patented short stack stick n move strategy...hope it helps...oh i typically buy in for 25 big blinds.


Your strategy says, I'm a weak player. My post flop play is terrible, if I'm lucky enough to double up or tripple up, I must leave cause I will give you all my money back.

It sounds like you are waiting for priemium hands, and if you are like most short stackers you just go all in preflop and hope you win the race. Learn to play with a stack and you will make more money, more quickly on a more consistant bases. Your strategy is like playing tag with a 4 year old, everything is the base when they are about to get tagged. Learn to play with the big boys!!!
 
-Phil Ivey27

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If you are doubling up and gone, this is called rat holing and very much hated by regs lol

Hahaha, I agree. But it depends on your situation.

Chris Ferguson says that if you double your buy-in you should wait till your blinds come around and then leave.

But I also do agree with trigga in a way, it kind of symbolizes that you are a weak player and is afraid to lose your money back.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Always buy in for the max at a table. Don't go in assuming you can risk less. If you get a monster hand and flop you can only win a small amount with a short stack. Your chip stack in a weapon, even in ring games. If you buy in for half a buy in you are only hurting yourself.


Personally I always buy in for the max.

Ed Miller does make a good case for not buying in for the max on a table with 100BB limit as it makes TPTK harder to play. He prefers buying in for 80BB on those tables. Once the stack is over the 130BB mark, TPTK becomes harder to play as a stacking off hand but far easier to play as a small pot hand.... so so says mr Miller!! :D (the book in question is professional no-limit holdem)
 
RogueRivered

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If you are doubling up and gone, this is called rat holing and very much hated by regs lol

I figure that if you are annoying the regs with your playing strategies, you must be doing something right! Regs always recommend beginners to play full stacks. Think about it.
 
Jurn8

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I figure that if you are annoying the regs with your playing strategies, you must be doing something right! Regs always recommend beginners to play full stacks. Think about it.

thought about it.
So you can take 100BBs from them rather than 20BBs.

what good is 20BBs going to do? It doesnt matter if you annoy them cus your not going to see them again are you if you just rat hole and leave all the time.
 
zachvac

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Against similarly-skilled players, the smaller your stack size, the bigger your edge. Against worse players (hopefully you're playing against these), the bigger stacks will allow them to make larger mistakes and thus you'll have the bigger edge with a bigger stack. I disagree that there's no strategy for buying in with 50 BBs. If you can play with 50 BBs you will frustrate a lot of regulars who simply don't understand how to play against a 50 BB stack. Nowadays everyone knows how to play against shortstacks, and most solid regulars understand 100 BB play to some degree, but many end up lost against a 50 BB stack.

That said if you shortstack you end up in hell when you die, so just learn to play 100 BB deep poker :).
 
RogueRivered

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It doesnt matter if you annoy them cus your not going to see them again are you if you just rat hole and leave all the time.

The reason it's called ratholing, imo, is to discourage players from doing it. In a live game, this will make you very unpopular quickly, so it has more of a social disadvantage. Online there are so many games going at once that you can move about freely if you choose and people will have a harder time singling you out. Playing several tables at once, you won't even see their rude comments.

Against similarly-skilled players, the smaller your stack size, the bigger your edge. Against worse players (hopefully you're playing against these), the bigger stacks will allow them to make larger mistakes and thus you'll have the bigger edge with a bigger stack. I disagree that there's no strategy for buying in with 50 BBs. If you can play with 50 BBs you will frustrate a lot of regulars who simply don't understand how to play against a 50 BB stack. Nowadays everyone knows how to play against shortstacks, and most solid regulars understand 100 BB play to some degree, but many end up lost against a 50 BB stack.

That said if you shortstack you end up in hell when you die, so just learn to play 100 BB deep poker :).

At microstakes, I don't see a whole lot of difference between playing 50 BBs vs. 100 BBs. The main reason I would play 1/2 stack is bankroll management and multi-tabling. You can buy into a lot more tables at 50 BB without risking your bankroll. Personally, I don't feel comfortable with less than 50 times the buy-in in my bankroll. If I want to play 10-20 tables at a time, I may not be able to afford it with a full stack.

Really short stacks (20 BBs) are easy to play for a beginner following simple guidelines and can help you with multi-tabling as well. I think it's definitely a good idea to get your feet wet before jumping in head first. Once you know what to expect you can start buying in for more and sticking around when you win, putting your big stack to use with experience under your belt.
 
Egon Towst

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I disagree that there's no strategy for buying in with 50 BBs.

I`d be interested to hear some details of your thoughts on that, Zach.


Nowadays everyone knows how to play against shortstacks,

I am not convinved of that. I do, and I am sure you do, but there are still lots of players who react with confusion and dismay when faced with shortstackers.

I can`t recall having seen a sensible discussion of the matter here, either, because threads that start discussing shortstacking usually descend into wailing and moaning about it, rather than actually analysing. Example:-

if you shortstack you end up in hell when you die

:D
 
BelgoSuisse

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If you are doubling up and gone, this is called rat holing and very much hated by regs lol

Tbh, i very much doubt that the other regs are sad when i leave their table... :D

Also, there's a huge difference between ratholing 20bb deep and ratholing 100bb deep.
 
dj11

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As someone who is on the verge of becoming much more familiar with ring games, I'm very interested in how to play against short stackers. :confused:

Would also love an in depth discussion about why ratholing is so despised.
Seems obvious to me that yeah, occasionally the rat holers would get away with a double up, more often they would drop their stacks. :confused:

Also, the whole notion of always playing fully stacked seems a bit unnecessarily dangerous.:confused:

But then I'm just systematically learning the ring grind, and currently am playing 6 max LHE at a level way above sane br management practices.
:confused::confused::confused:
 
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is playing short stacked(20BB) not better for clearing first deposit bonuses?
 
BelgoSuisse

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is playing short stacked(20BB) not better for clearing first deposit bonuses?

If you're a bad poker player, probably. Although you have to balance that with going to hell, which is actually only a very mild punishment for ruining the games, imo.

On the other hand, if you're strictly a bonus whore, you're probably better off learning how to play FL than shortstacking NL.

If you're a decent NL player, you want to play as deep as possible as the deeper you play the bigger your edge becomes.
 
Jurn8

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Ratholers are just bad players looking for a quick 20BBs IMO and have no poker skill.
 
P

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If i play multitabling, at micro limit (0.01/0.02), with short stack strategy, i still put 50BB (1$) just cause it's the stack's average at table. 20BB (40cents) is just ridiculous here. I'll put 1.50$ or 2$ there only if all players have that size stack.

The first reason is: All players have 1$ approx at those table, so i want to be able to knock out one or two for they entire stack...

And secondly, i dont want put the maximum buy-in (5$) if it have only one player at table with 5$ stack. He's probably the better player at table, while all donks and maniacs (or good grinders) have just 1$ anyway, am locking for those, not for the eagle with the maximum stack. A bad beat against him will not broke me

But, i adjust my betting size with my stack, to kill the implied odds for the set value of my opponent if i have a monster hand (i'll bet 1/4 of my stack). Then, if i have the small pocket, i call preflop only if i can expected to get approx 10x more money postflop, for my set value. So, with 44 and 1$ stack, i can call a 10cents preflop raise, 12cents with 1.20$ stack, 15cents with 1.50$ etc...

One thing am looking at table, before sitting or while waiting my BB, it's the average of preflop raise amount, to be sure i have the stack (good odds) to call a raise there for my floped set value, cause with an average of 40cents preflop raise, i need 4$ there to keep my implied odds for my floped set value

With the same (short stack) strategy, i put 2$ (40BB) at 0.02/0.05 and 3$ (30BB) at 0.05/0.10, so more high is the BB, more closer i am from the 20BB.

And yes i sit down after double up or treble up my stack and am not shy to do this lol

But if table is very juicy-loose, i'll stay there more longer, and i'll adjust my play with my stack, but i'll leave if 2-3 big stack take a seat after 2-3 monkeys knock out. No matter what they'll think about me...

If with 3$ stack, am the chip leader at table and stack average is about 1$, i have no reason to stay there, cause i have no implied odds...

This strategy is good for multitabling, less tough decisions, easier to follow the game. Yeah big stack is a good weapon, but only against good players...
 
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Pat Riot

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I have been sitting on 2-3 tables with 5% on each table. Do you feel I should decrease this amount?:cool:

It's too much, BR management suggest max 5% of your BR at table at same time, all table combined.
 
Egon Towst

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As someone who is on the verge of becoming much more familiar with ring games, I'm very interested in how to play against short stackers. :confused:


Probably needs a thread of its own. Here is an introduction to the topic:

Distinguish between players buying in short because they have no funds and know no better (the majority) and those who have studied the strategy and maths of short-stack play. (Pros Ed Miller {Getting Started in Holdem} and Rolf Slotboom {Secrets of Professional Pot Limit Omaha} have written about these, and are worth reading if you are interested).

The fish may be doing just about anything, but should be easy to counter. The serious people will be buying in for ~20x BB and topping up their stack when it falls by 25%. They will be uber-TAG, playing less than 10% of hands (sometimes less than 5%) and always raising pre-flop (except perhaps from the blinds).

Their basic aim is to play monster hands only and to suck deep-stack players with lesser holdings into all-in confrontations. Often, deep-stackers will call them light out of frustration with their style of play (which traditional players dislike) and because the amount needed to call is not a great part of the deep player`s stack.

Solution - when you identify a player using this style, these are the main countermeasures:

1. Remain calm. Short-stackers thrive on players who get annoyed with them and try to knock them out.

2. Never call his pre-flop raise unless you have a big pocket pair. That is what he wants you to do.

3. Raise his blind from late position with any decent holding and deny him a cheap flop. Short-stackers can`t play more than about three rounds of blinds without needing to top up. If he continually has to top up and can`t get action on his big hands, he will have to give it up and move to a softer table.
 
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