What are good pot odds to complete from the SB?

NineLions · Feb 16, 2007

The pot odds themselves I can calculate easily enough, but what determines if you have "good pot odds to complete"?

If you've got 2 limpers and don't expect the BB to raise, what kind of holdings would you need to have to complete, or does it matter? Would you complete with 72o? Or any face card, or 3 gaper?

ChuckTs · Feb 16, 2007

I think the answer to this is that (surprise!) it depends. It's a different situation for tournaments and cash games since rings are more about odds and +EV plays rather than survival + chip accumulation.

In general though, I myself don't limp with anything that isn't connected in some way or suited (or both). That's in rings; in tourneys, I'm almost always trying to advertise a tight-aggressive style, and will most of the time fold even with incredible pot odds.

In rings, I'll limp with any reasonable hand like J8s or a small pair if I've got two limpers already in the pot (so ~7:1 in my case). Not sure if this is 'correct' or not; I also play a very LAG game in rings...

NineLions · Feb 16, 2007

Thanks Chuck. I think I forgot to think about the difference between tourneys and ring games. Probably from watching all those videos lately from Dorkus and joose.

And maybe it's Dorkus I should be asking, since he mentions it often in his videos.

alan1983 · Feb 17, 2007

I limp with almost anything except maybe 72o, 82 or 92.

Everything else im in.

NineLions · Feb 17, 2007

If I look at my Poker Tracker stats, I'm quite negative in the SB, more than from BB, though that could be due to not getting off marginally-hit flops. When I noticed that, I stopped playing from the SB unless I had a playable hand; ie something that I at least would have limped with from the button if there were lots of limpers ahead of me. Something like, Ace-rag, or unsuited connectors or maybe even gapped connectors.

Is 7 - 1 pot odds (two limpers + SB & BB), say early in a SnG so stacks are fairly even, no player reads yet, good enough to play

96o?

K3o?

Or 46s?

From the replies so far, it sounds like the answer in all cases would be "yes"

Nitram_80 · Feb 18, 2007

This is one of the hardest things for me to understand b/c its different for alot of situations . For example early in trny I may call with almost anything b/c some idiot will limp in with pocket aces once in a while and you will double up when you hit it big. In a ring game I play it more tightly b/c it could cost you a few bucks when you play that bottom pair to the river. In general I limp in with any Ace , most Ks and middle cards that are close togheter, ie: 79. But this is definitely one of the trickiest things in poker b/c I dont keep tract of stats, which I should and may start soon.

F Paulsson · Feb 19, 2007

NineLions,

Try attacking the problem from the other side. With the players that you're up against (that have already called) and the size of the pot, what kind of flops are you looking for with the two cards that you're holding? If you call with K-3 and the flop comes K-9-8, would you feel good about that against these opponents in a small pot or would it absolutely suck to play out of position?

Play hands that you can hit comfortable flops with. I define a comfortable flop as one you know what to do with. If you feel confident, you'll make fewer mistakes.

Edit: My point being that although you may have equity surplus for any two cards, that won't help you unless you actually manage to realize that equity into real dollars. Flopping A-K-4 and holding 4-2, how are you going to ever get to showdown? Etc.

alan1983 · Feb 19, 2007

F Paulsson said:
NineLions,

Try attacking the problem from the other side. With the players that you're up against (that have already called) and the size of the pot, what kind of flops are you looking for with the two cards that you're holding? If you call with K-3 and the flop comes K-9-8, would you feel good about that against these opponents in a small pot or would it absolutely suck to play out of position?

Play hands that you can hit comfortable flops with. I define a comfortable flop as one you know what to do with. If you feel confident, you'll make fewer mistakes.

Edit: My point being that although you may have equity surplus for any two cards, that won't help you unless you actually manage to realize that equity into real dollars. Flopping A-K-4 and holding 4-2, how are you going to ever get to showdown? Etc.

The thing that makes me call is this (its prob math. wrong) But if say everyone folds and theres button, me in SB, BB and a limper and i have K5, then a king high board would be good for me against a few players. Or just button +SB+BB, then even if you hit middle pair itll often be enough.

Now when theres a lot of limpers, your odds of having best hand decrease a lot i guess, but your pot odds increase a lot too, so i call hoping to flop two pairs or whatever right on flop.

F Paulsson · Feb 19, 2007

As long as you know what you're looking for in a flop, it's all good. But there are a lot of people who complete because of pot odds, and then just fold the flop even when they do hit one of the best case scenarios because they run into resistance.

NineLions · Feb 20, 2007

F Paulsson said:
NineLions,

Try attacking the problem from the other side. With the players that you're up against (that have already called) and the size of the pot, what kind of flops are you looking for with the two cards that you're holding? If you call with K-3 and the flop comes K-9-8, would you feel good about that against these opponents in a small pot or would it absolutely suck to play out of position?

Play hands that you can hit comfortable flops with. I define a comfortable flop as one you know what to do with. If you feel confident, you'll make fewer mistakes.

Edit: My point being that although you may have equity surplus for any two cards, that won't help you unless you actually manage to realize that equity into real dollars. Flopping A-K-4 and holding 4-2, how are you going to ever get to showdown? Etc.

Well, I can always hope to flop a full house

Seriously though, I see the point. It's something like playing suited connectors; it's going to miss or catch only a piece of the flop most times, so I'd have to be able to get away from it. And if the two cards are too far apart to make a straight, and they're not suited, then there is only pairs/treys/full house possibilities.

K5 would be similar, but worse than, limping a weak Ace. But if you've only got one limper, then you have a better chance if a K flops, but, you also had less equity going in than if you had 2 or 3 limpers.

So, but FP, are you saying that because of the equity it may be worthwhile to complete with almost anything, if, and only if, you're confident in your ability to play those two cards against the table as you know it?

F Paulsson · Feb 20, 2007

Let me put it this way: If I could see my opponents' hole cards, I'd always complete from the small blind.

A question that I've begun asking myself more and more often recently is "do I want to play THIS hand against THAT opponent?" It's a question worth asking. Some opponents - the really bluff happy ones - I don't mind playing A-x type hands against (remember, I play chiefly limit), because they show a profit against his three barrell bluffs with J-high. Other opponents I like limping 87s out of position against because they're passive but very loose; no risk of getting raised behind me, and they'll pay me off when I hit.

So if I'm in the small blind with Q3o, and I'm looking around the table... Will anyone pay me off if I hit a top pair with my queen? Or are they all tight and will only call a bet on a queen-high flop with top pair themselves?

NineLions · Feb 20, 2007

F Paulsson said:
So if I'm in the small blind with Q3o, and I'm looking around the table... Will anyone pay me off if I hit a top pair with my queen? Or are they all tight and will only call a bet on a queen-high flop with top pair themselves?

That's a good way of putting it. Thanks FP.

Coryan · Feb 21, 2007

You're talking about me!

F Paulsson said:
As long as you know what you're looking for in a flop, it's all good. But there are a lot of people who complete because of pot odds, and then just fold the flop even when they do hit one of the best case scenarios because they run into resistance.

Paulsson makes a really good point here. I have been calling WAY too much from the SB just because I'm in a loose game and there are often three or four limpers ahead of me. With 4+, I have called with anything.

But as Paulsson points out...what do I do after the flop? If I called with T4s and hit top pair...am I thrilled? Do I bet out with four or five players after me? Do I CR and hope not to get called? And if I am called, now what? Geez, even typing this is making me wheezy.

I really like Paulsson's advice, so I will now have three criteria for calling from the SB:

1) Good pot odds.
2) Know what flop I am looking for.
3) Have the balls & brains to play that flop correctly when it hits.

THANKS PAULSSON!

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What are good pot odds to complete from the SB?

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