What to do here?

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cscogl1

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in little blind...i have K J spades.. 17 dollars preflop about 5 callers on table (so 85ish dollars preflop). Flop comes all spades, check round all the way to me. I go in half my stack ($100) of ($200) to push off in case anyone might be willing to gamble with the ace of spades (and to also kill the hand right there and take the pot)- the big blind slow plays it i take it the guy is gambling and he finally calls. The turn comes 7 of clubs..i go all in and he snap calls..he flopped it as well.

Also oddly enough hes sitting right next to me. What is the best way i should have played this?
 
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cscogl1

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i explained why i did it, i wanted the nearly 100 dollar pot given i assumed i had the best hand. Normally i would have checked with the nuts but in this case i had K J and just didnt want a suckout to happen. Clearly it was still the wrong approach?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Ah sorry, read it as pot is $17 after pre flop action in complete and you came out betting close to 6x pot lol.Yea just bet flop, shove turn. I'd make it slightly less on flop though.
 
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cscogl1

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so i played it right?

i kept thinking how i could acquire more info about his hand..i could have checked the turn instead of shoved and if he bet i would have known hed already have the nuts.

Then again, he could have been playing a queen high flush and i wouldnt have known..if i also checked the turn it would have given him an opportunity for another spade to come.

so i guess this is just a bad situation =/
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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They way you played it after the flop is fine, you're gonna stack off almost all the time with the 2nd nuts here. I would question though your play preflop but without blind sizes and stack sizes I don't have enough info.
 
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cscogl1

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blinds and size 1/2 NL bout 700-800max on table
 
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BlueNowhere

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I'm almost never checking turn. There is a tonne worse he can have here, sets + 2 pr + worse flush that checking turn is very bad.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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And the initial raiser, your read on them, how does your KJs compare to that players opening range, any of the intervening callers stacked less than $100, any of the intervening players 'gamblers' that like to run down a squeeze? How would you be viewed by the other players, loose, tight, tricky, ??

If the initial raiser isn't a complete nit I would either 3-bet KJs here OOP to the initial raiser and shove any flop or fold preflop.
 
Deco

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:as4:
I go in half my stack ($100) of ($200) to push off in case anyone might be willing to gamble with the ace of spades (and to also kill the hand right there and take the pot)-



I'd bet less on the flop. No need to overbet at all. When you have the 2nd nuts you do not want to be pushing people away from the pot. If I bet $60 and someone calls with the ace of spade draw I'm delighted.

They have 7outs to hit a spade which is around 6 to 1 to happen.
To make that $60 back they need to win $360.
There is $145 in the pot.
Even if they stack us every single time they hit for an extra $140 they still only make $280.

Everytime an :as4: draw calls us for $60 we make at least $80 profit in the long run!
 
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cscogl1

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Deco that does make a little bit more sense to me, im a quick profit player at the moment though so $100 to me is better than losing $200 to a suck out. I honestly wanted to kill the pot right there and take the profits

but i see that doing 60 dollars might be fair enough for a low flusher to stay on board. I dont know- i possbily could have acquired more information about his hand had i bet smaller..but again given his well played hand, he could have simply called a bet < 60 as well

Jilly as for preflop, i wasnt going to 3 bet with one of the shortest stacks on the table. and get called all in preflop with K J of spades. I go into that hand expecting to flush out with a 10person table- at least thats what i hope for
 
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BlueNowhere

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Deco that does make a little bit more sense to me, im a quick profit player at the moment though so $100 to me is better than losing $200 to a suck out. I honestly wanted to kill the pot right there and take the profits

but i see that doing 60 dollars might be fair enough for a low flusher to stay on board. I dont know

Jilly as for preflop, i wasnt going to 3 bet with one of the shortest stacks on the table. and get called all in preflop with K J of spades. I go into that hand expecting to flush out- thats just how i think.

I'd guess they were suggesting doing the opposite of 3-bet.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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bout 700-800max on table

5 callers on table

10person table

Seems your stack of $217 was well above the $80 average???

If you are flat calling KJs from the SB in a raised pot only to try and hit the ST8 or flush then there is no way you can get away from this hand when you hit the 2nd nuts.

In my regular $1/$2 live game, 3-bet KJs from the SB will play very well here against most of the players in my game. I'm assuming that it went something like EP opens for $17, 2 LP callers, you complete in the SB as does the BB. IMHO you can easily pop this preflop to $55-$65 (depends on who's already called and your image) and take this down preflop a large % of the time.
 
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cscogl1

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Jilly, i know this is veering off on another topic, but from my short experience playing live poker ive seen whenever someone 3-bets a pot after intially investing bout 10% of their initial stacks given most people on table are around 200-300 they almost always seem to make the call. I clearly see your point tho, its something im trying to get better at understanding and doing. K J for me is such an interesting hand to be 3-betting with but given my position in the small blind i think you are right. At least in this situation with the BB being the guy with the best hand, he would have folded because nothing had been invested yet.

Thanks for the tip
 
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BlueNowhere

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I'm hardly ever 3-betting this pre-flop. People like flops and don't enjoy folding for the most (well it's certainly safe to assume that where you get 5 people just calling for 8.5xBB.
 
Deco

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im a quick profit player at the moment though so $100 to me is better than losing $200 to a suck out. I honestly wanted to kill the pot right there and take the profits

If I was scared of losing $200 to the point it affected my decisions I would not play 200NL. When you buyin for $200 you've got to be prepared to lose it. You can't just put it in when your guaranteed the pot and expect to be profitable.

We want profitable decisions not cautious or even scared ones.
 
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baudib1

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Whatever you do pre is fine as long as it doesn't involve folding. Postflop, just get stacks in somehow, nh.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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FWIW I'm 3-betting this preflop expecting to get heads up with the initial raiser. My live experience is that the other limpers will have a high % of folds after my 3-bet if the initial raiser calls.
 
Deco

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I actually fold pre. KJs is a nice speculative hand 6way but not when we need to put almost 10% of our stack in to see the flop. Im not even sure if I'd set mine here never mind play sooted cards to hit the flush. Whilst playing KJ for the sake of hitting a pair OOP to 5players is my worst nightmare.

3betting for value here is crazy. We have no read on the original raiser. Secondly our hand isn't strong enough even if the original raiser is a huge fish.

Fold> Call> 3bet
 
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BlueNowhere

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I actually fold pre. KJs is a nice speculative hand 6way but not when we need to put almost 10% of our stack in to see the flop. Im not even sure if I'd set mine here never mind play sooted cards to hit the flush. Whilst playing KJ for the sake of hitting a pair OOP to 5players is my worst nightmare.

3betting for value here is crazy. We have no read on the original raiser. Secondly our hand isn't strong enough even if the original raiser is a huge fish.

Fold> Call> 3bet
I agree with this. I'm never 3-betting pre and I don't like calling either.
 
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dan abnormal

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I cant stand this hand, looks all pretty like but nothing but trouble
 
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BlueNowhere

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FWIW I'm 3-betting this preflop expecting to get heads up with the initial raiser. My live experience is that the other limpers will have a high % of folds after my 3-bet if the initial raiser calls.
So you want to get HU OOP against a villian who has a range that is crushing you? Then you have to take into account the times he 4-bet shoves and the time where you get more that one to the flop. I definitely think 3-betting is the worst option.
 
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