What to do on the flop...

First night in Aria $1/$3 NL Hold'em... Villain1 (loose luck box) min raises to $6. Villain2 (TAG with Mt Everest sized chip stack) calls, and Hero in BB calls with T8; there is $19 in the pot. Hero has $94 in stack after call, and both villains have Hero covered. Flop comes T86 rainbow. Villain1 leads out for $12 and Villain 2 calls. What should the Hero do? There is $43 in the pot, and Hero has $94.

You should put in a hefty raise to shut down the draws and hopefully get it in against TP/TK/Overpair ranges

Pot it

isnt potting it bad? im more of a tourney player but from what i've been told if your putting half your stack on the line you may aswell shove instead.

That being said i was also told never go bust on a hand that wasnt good enough to raise pre

the huge dilemma with this hand is the hero has a very weak holding and flops 2 pair, if you think he has an overpair you definately need to get it in,
if you know player A gets it in with A 10 on this flop then get your chips in
what is Player B calling with

if you dont shove your making a mistake, but if you do shove your only getting called by a hand thats beating you, so you must then extract value

Bet the pot. It sends a strong signal and maintains some of your stack for more money on the turn playing for the benefit of expected value.

I'd probably bet around 3/4 pot. If mount Everest raises you I might flip a coin to decide if I believe he has a set or a high over pair. I doubt Everest would have anything above 99 for pocket pairs because of his lack of a re raise.

Was your hand T9s, at least. You've got top pr and a gutter. What you do should depend on whether you are prepared to get your short stack in the middle with that hand.

sillymunchie said:

isnt potting it bad? im more of a tourney player but from what i've been told if your putting half your stack on the line you may aswell shove instead.

That being said i was also told never go bust on a hand that wasnt good enough to raise pre

the huge dilemma with this hand is the hero has a very weak holding and flops 2 pair, if you think he has an overpair you definately need to get it in,
if you know player A gets it in with A 10 on this flop then get your chips in
what is Player B calling with

if you dont shove your making a mistake, but if you do shove your only getting called by a hand thats beating you, so you must then extract value

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Fair point, and I wouldn't fault the initial shove. Potting it accomplishes three things...at least in my mind. 1) You can win it right there if villains were bluffing or have a hand not strong enough to continue without risking your entire stack; 2) You're up against two hands...you could very well get one of them off their hands if #1 applies to one of them; 3)If villain's hand is good enough, he's going to put you all in, which hero wouldn't mind anyway.

In this Particular situation shoving is best option as we might well be pot commited after all even if we call or raise
at best we might be up against over pair

hope that no one has set though

by the way T8 should go into muck as its not much of a hand to play with

I agree with shoving, no point in letting anyone get w free cheap drawing hand and letting them get there

yep shove and put them to the test... if they snap call, they prob win, if they tank call, then you have outs to dodge...

hope you shoved and turned a full house

mblmusic said:

First night in Aria $1/$3 NL Hold'em... Villain1 (loose luck box) min raises to $6. Villain2 (TAG with Mt Everest sized chip stack) calls, and Hero in BB calls with T8; there is $19 in the pot. Hero has $94 in stack after call, and both villains have Hero covered. Flop comes T86 rainbow. Villain1 leads out for $12 and Villain 2 calls. What should the Hero do? There is $43 in the pot, and Hero has $94.

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So first things first, how much time do you have at this particular table? Given the descriptions, (Villain1 (loose luck box) & Villain2 (TAG with Mt Everest sized chip stack), I assume you had been sitting here a couple of hours.

#1 - You may want to consider the reads the other players may have on you when considering your reads of others.

#2 - With a loose and TAG players in the hand, you have to assume any raise you put in here is getting called by one or both of them. Especially considering the TAG player has you heavily dominated in chips. Take into account the size of the other stacks as well as your own. Your stack may be inconsequential to theirs making them more prone to want to attempt a suckout.
#3 - With this particular hand and these reads of the players, I consider a call over a shove. The texture of the board plays right into the hands of a big stack and very well into the range of the loose player. If you flat and the board straightens out even more, you are only out $12 bucks. If you jam and walk into 10's, you are out $94. Pay attention to the textures of the flops before spewing away your chips.

#4 - I haven't seen if you have responded or not, but I am going to guess that you jammed here and got called by something like J9. A Q or 7 hit the turn and you hit the rail.

Am I close?


Uhhhhhhhh

I would raise about$35-$40 to leave room for top pair to call,then shove all-in on the turn,,,that should maximize your return.

We can play the hand a number of ways. We need to consider our opponents range and what it means for us. As you have said the original opener is a loose player (would be nice to know from where they opened) but as you have not said we assume their range here is super wide) and Villan 2 calling has a smaller range of hands. I think there are certain assumptions we can make about Villan 2s range of hands. As Villan 1 is a loose player and they just flat their min raise I think we can remove the premium hands from Villan 2s range.
While on occassion they have the monster pairs in their range (particular if there are squeezers behind to act) they generally want to raise their big hands against such loose players as they might continue with worse hands and any spot they can get to put more money in with a big hand versus a loose/weak range is a spot they should take. So with that said Villan 2 can have all the KT, QT, QJs, small pairs (including 66) and some suited connector hands.
We flat the min raise getting a really good price and we hit top 2 pair. It would be nice to know more about how Villan plays post flop but we can play this hand a couple of ways.
As we flop top 2 we block most of their sets, Villan 2 has 66 in their range, Villan 1 can also have 79 especially with that bet sizing. But their is not many hands we are behind of. I think Villan's most likely holding is a top pair type hand, KT, QT, AT etc. They will also have some 8x in their range. Some A8 suited etc.
It's kind of awkward stack size to deal with here. we have twice pot behind facing the cbet on flop. Any raise we make on the flop is effectively committing us and against good players are they really going to pay us with hands like KT, QT AT etc.
With the stack size as it is, I like flatting the flop bet (keeping your opponents ranges as wide) and looking to jam most turns bar a 9. A 9 is the only card we absolutely don't really want to see here as the QJ is in both villan's range. Neither player has too many combinations of T7 or 87. Villan 1 is a loose player and may opt for the 2nd barrell, perhaps picking up some equity and turning and open ender or flush draw. This play also allows us to see how Villan 2 will react on the turn.

Raise the pot it's the best message you can give to them. Leave them with that strong message. They would have to think twice is to flop or call.

Mobcasinos said:

Raise the pot it's the best message you can give to them. Leave them with that strong message. They would have to think twice is to flop or call.

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This is flawed logic. As already explained above I believe their ranges are very wide here and with the nature of Villan 1 he will likely fire out a bet on the turn again in which case we can be happy to jam it in on most turns. You want to make the max from hands.

Yeah for sure I push In this situation out the pressure on them to make a call on a draw

Thank you everyone for your responses; great input! Here's what I was thinking and how I played it out...
I have 2 concerns...I'm out of position and my stack size. I took premium pairs out of my opponent's ranges, but was most worried about hands like 57, 67, 78, 79, 89, 9T, 9J and TJ where they have a pair and a gut shot or an open ended straight draw. I did not spend enough time thinking about hands like AT, KT or maybe even QT that might have been led out by Villain1 or called by Villain2.
Regarding calling...I ruled this out as I figured I needed to make any draws pay to see the turn, and I figured that there had to be draws in my opponent's ranges.
So, I figured I had to raise.. but how much? This is where my stack size really bothered me, and the fact that the loose player was to my left and the TAG player would act last. How much would it take to make calling for the draw incorrect? If I bet half pot and the loose player calls (something I considered likely), then the TAG player just might be priced in enough to call for the draw (plenty of implied odds if the loose player already called). Then the turn would have $85 in the pot and I would have $73 behind. I got really caught up in thinking that I had to bet more on the flop to make drawing unattractive, but that would leave me with much less than a pot sized bet on the turn. If I raised to $36 and the loose player calls, then there is $115 in the pot, and the TAG player still gets the right odds to call! If the TAG player folds, then there is $115 in the pot and I have $58 behind. So, I went all-in and both Villains folded.
Later that evening I thought I probably left value on the table with that hand, but had no idea how to get it...so I posted. Thanks again for your responses!

bet bet and bet

Raise 30 - 40 , only T's 8s 6s n 79 beat u on flop, and u hold one of t / 8 , so just go for it ,if they call ur raise ,turn card not ace,k ,u are safe ... just go allin

U may ask how about turn 7 or 9?
He is so loose . .. if he draw that gut shot call with big raise, u just unlucky! But u do the right thing .long run 100% +EV here

Think you should raise prolly getting called by A10 or K10.. Don't mind just calling to trap the third hand in the mix.. Many turns come that don't hurt your hand

Lots of great info., I'm leaning to more of a 2/3 to pot size raise, but I have another question...
Why is your stack $100? Did you buy in for the minimum, or has your stack been punished? If its the first then you should consider buying in for more to prevent your dilemma with stack size. If the later, why not top off?
Anyway, good luck.

1

mblmusic said:

First night in Aria $1/$3 NL Hold'em... Villain1 (loose luck box) min raises to $6. Villain2 (TAG with Mt Everest sized chip stack) calls, and Hero in BB calls with T8; there is $19 in the pot. Hero has $94 in stack after call, and both villains have Hero covered. Flop comes T86 rainbow. Villain1 leads out for $12 and Villain 2 calls. What should the Hero do? There is $43 in the pot, and Hero has $94.

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Rase pot, if somebody calls next step allin on the turn, if everyone has fold - good for you, u won some money That is my usually strategy, but sometimes u need just doing the call on the flop and be aggrassive on the turn, a lot of things depend on a game of your opponents

You should make a raise over the pot or shove all in. It is a big pot already try to win it right then and there with your two pair.