What to do against weird bets by recreational players?

Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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For example:

poker stars $0.08/$0.16 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 2196549
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $16.24
BB: $17.48
UTG: $8.89
CO: $28.84
Hero (BTN): $16.00

Pre Flop: ($0.24) Hero is BTN with 7 :diamond: K :diamond:
UTG calls $0.16, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.64, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.48

Flop: ($1.52) K :spade: 5 :club: 6 :spade: (2 players)
UTG bets $2.08, Hero raises to $15.36 all in, UTG calls $6.17 all in

Turn: ($18.02) 8 :diamond: (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($18.02) A :club: (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $18.02
UTG shows K :club: 6 :club: (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
Hero shows 7 :diamond: K :diamond: (a pair of Kings)
UTG wins $17.21
(Rake: $0.81)

Villain was an unknown and I figured he was on a flush/straight draw or some other random junk but I was clearly wrong. If in a situation like this, the villain over bets do we just fold until we get any reads on him, because if we shove we have to be correct the majority of the time.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Man I'd like to help you here - but WOW - WTH were you thinking?

To give a direct answer to "If in a situation like this, the villain over bets do we just fold until we get any reads on him,":

Uh, yeah - better than shoving versus an unknown with top pair weak kicker. So easy for him to be holding K 9-Q, even 56 suited. His read could have been your read - you have a flush draw and he's going make you pay - that doesn't mean he has nothing. Did you not even consider you might be behind?
 
sam1chips

sam1chips

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Yeah, just on top of the fact that you are getting terrible pot odds to call...you are going to have to be right a high % of the time. If you just got to the table and don't have a read on them, it is probably best to just fold top pair with a weak kicker and wait for a better spot.


Also, I don't like the huge over-bet of the flop (out of position) with only top pair and weak kicker. If you check post-flop, then villain probably can't push it all-in on the flop (and even if they do, then it's easy to get away from it)
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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Man I'd like to help you here - but WOW - WTH were you thinking?

To give a direct answer to "If in a situation like this, the villain over bets do we just fold until we get any reads on him,":

Uh, yeah - better than shoving versus an unknown with top pair weak kicker. So easy for him to be holding K 9-Q, even 56 suited. His read could have been your read - you have a flush draw and he's going make you pay - that doesn't mean he has nothing. Did you not even consider you might be behind?

He's playing 1 table. He's a fish. He's short stacked.
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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Yeah, just on top of the fact that you are getting terrible pot odds to call...you are going to have to be right a high % of the time. If you just got to the table and don't have a read on them, it is probably best to just fold top pair with a weak kicker and wait for a better spot.


Also, I don't like the huge over-bet of the flop (out of position) with only top pair and weak kicker. If you check post-flop, then villain probably can't push it all-in on the flop (and even if they do, then it's easy to get away from it)

Re-read the hand again.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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He's playing 1 table. He's a fish. He's short stacked.

That's a lot of assumptions for an "unknown".

Did you base him being a fish on playing one table or what?
 
Aleksei

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I just fold here. At that bet size he has either air or something that beats me, with likely nothing in-between. And at that bet size he doesn't have to be good that often for it to be unprofitable for me to call.

So, fish or no fish, calling (let alone shoving) seems slightly retarded.
 
BluffyouBAD

BluffyouBAD

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I don't know man. I have a few issues with this hand and how I would play it.

1) Playing a hand like that in position is fine since most players generally loosen up on the button because of its positional advantage.
2) Preflop raise of 4x BB I agree with.
3) post flop he bets big out of position which indicates strength (although I doubt players at such small limits play as Skalnksy has taught us)
4) Your reraise didn't have to be an all in but you said you thought he was on a draw which makes the bet more understandable but he was probably calling anyway with 33% of his stack in even though it was the wrong play.


My thoughts from your perspective
1) Calling a raise from out of position for 4x BB would make me believe Villian has a hand in top part of his range regardless of how much you have played with him.
2)Post flop he 1.25x Pot and you thought he was on a draw. If Villain called raise out of position I doubt he would be playing any combination of hands there that would give him a straight draw but a flush draw is very possible.
3) pot odds weren't good enough to make a big call like that with K7s IMO.

Now you see his cards and your thinking he made a bad play (which is true) but his bad play should have made it even easier for you to lay down your cards since it represented strength for one and your pot odds weren't good. All of it adds up to a play that is only profitable a small percentage of the time.

I like to give an opponent respect for a few hands until I pick up a bit more about him. Laying that down would have been easy for me.
 
masondub

masondub

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Wow that flop raise AI was so spewy. He bet into you after calling your raise, You have to be kind of cautious there and think that he possibly might have a good hand. Id prefer just calling there.. Maybe even just fold, easier said then done after flopping top pair I know but maybe next you wont play K7 even if suited.. Its just one of those hands that can you get you into trouble. Now let's say you just called his flop bet, on the turn you hit the OESD with top pair the villian is more then likely going to push his stack in with about $5 left and I dont see most people getting away from that hand with almost $3 committed to the pot. Just a bad sitiuation you put yourself in with K7.
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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That's a lot of assumptions for an "unknown".

Did you base him being a fish on playing one table or what?

He limps in. I think that's enough information to label him a fish.
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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Wow that flop raise AI was so spewy. He bet into you after calling your raise, You have to be kind of cautious there and think that he possibly might have a good hand. Id prefer just calling there.. Maybe even just fold, easier said then done after flopping top pair I know but maybe next you wont play K7 even if suited.. Its just one of those hands that can you get you into trouble. Now let's say you just called his flop bet, on the turn you hit the OESD with top pair the villian is more then likely going to push his stack in with about $5 left and I dont see most people getting away from that hand with almost $3 committed to the pot. Just a bad sitiuation you put yourself in with K7.

Against a fish who limps in, I think K7s is fine to raise IP.
 
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Mursilis1

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Not a good idea to call off your stack with a weak holding, like top pair weak kicker, although its a good idea to keep track of all the times you make a play like that, this way you can see if its profitable. Some people have a gift in this area and are exceptional readers. They can sometimes call big bets with much less, just a small pair, ace high.
In heads up which is my specialty I have a good feel for the game. Ive made a lot of feel plays once called with Jack high and was right.

thats why I say keep records of those spots. Its easy for your mind to trick you into believing your a feel player simply by remembering the times you were right but not wrong. I hope this helps.gl
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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He limps in. I think that's enough information to label him a fish.

Okay, I'll buy that - but along with that fishiness comes limping in early with up to AA.
I like your 4x after that but should have exercised more caution and thoughtfulness when he calls it preflop.
Putting a draw in his range after the flop is very reasonable - but locking in on that is just dangerous - as you found out.
It looks like you made your mind up and damned the torpedoes - FULL SPEED AHEAD! Well that's great if you flop a set, but once again that weak kicker you were holding should have gotten more of your attention.
 
Aces2w1n

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Your on tilt with shoves like that
 
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grandpajesse

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Yeah you really played that hand poorly. I like flatting and reassessing the turn. If he fires a scary turn you have to assume he has it without reads. I don't likejamming OTF because at the micros you are still likely getting called, and you can value bet against draws OTT.
 
O

orangepeeleo

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You cant flat that flop bet and re-assess because he has a pot size bet left ott and its going in for sure.

I fold fwiw, i wish you hadnt shown results or I would have looked like a god, because K5/6 or 56 is easily poss here, its one of the reasons we iso pre, because thats the kind of thing he calls with.

Our default read atm has to be that he's a loose passive station so when he pots it I fold
 
ScottieDuncan

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doesn't sound like a fish to me. He wouldn't bet like he did if he didn't have a decent hand.
 
Prophet

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Im sorry to say but he did not play worse than you. and even if he put you on a flush draw or AK.... he made the call because having you beat. If you have catched th seven on the river instead of ace... he would have said about you that you're a fish becasue you pushed on the flop with a weak kicker
 
W

Willols

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That wasn't the best time to shove. Especially if he's limping a lot even if you were ahead on the flop he'd be bound to have a lot of outs.
 
RodneyC86

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We turned a showdown hand into a bluff? Against a fish (agrofish) that's quite ewwww
 
K

Kbalzara

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yes to options there call or fold. I prefer fold given that overbet from unknown is prety strong, plus you avoid tough decission on turn,
 
D

detourglr

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He's playing 1 table. He's a fish. He's short stacked.
Shortstacked??? he has 55X BB.. far from short stack..
I always buy in for about 40xBB for people like you that think I am a fish just becuase of buying at 40x.
Myself I dont think you had any reason to call the ALL-In for what you had.

A bit of advice: judge if they are a fish or not by how they play their hands and not by their chip stack alone
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

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Shortstacked??? he has 55X BB.. far from short stack..
I always buy in for about 40xBB for people like you that think I am a fish just becuase of buying at 40x.
Myself I dont think you had any reason to call the ALL-In for what you had.

A bit of advice: judge if they are a fish or not by how they play their hands and not by their chip stack alone

I didn't just look at his stack, I saw how many tables he was playing, his stack size and the fact he limped UTG, more than enough to label a fish.
Also I didn't call his all in.
 
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