What to do?

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Texasmanster

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Hi guys. I would like your input on something please.
I play $1-$2 no limit with a buy in $200. Here is my question. What are your playing thoughts when you raise that's say with AK. Board comes J-5-2. you get called by one player. Theory, and all the books say to make a continuation bet always. Here is were it gets tough. You made a raise of $10 and get called. if $23 dollars in the pot with blinds. If you do what all these experts say by making a continuation bet. And you make a half to 2/3 rds bet it's basically a 50/50 shot and you are committed for $20 Where is if you miss and check. Only $10 committed. I think this is a way over rated move in poker and costly!! Most people are going to make calls with face cards that are connected or pairs hoping to catch something. So if you get called on the flop and the turn comes. Unless it is a ace or king. your dead!! considering you have only four cards that can help you unless their is a draw. My thoughts are in poker you have to sit and wait sometime long for the right opportunities. And it's harder to make back large losses than small. I would like to get feedback and reasoning from you guys please on this
 
absoluthamm

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A CB on a dry board like that will take the pot down for you a lot of the time(obviously dependent on your opponents), and even when they do call, you have the opportunity to shut it down after that, but you're also ~25% to hit your Ace or King. If you are in position, this should be even more enticing because if you don't hit your card on the turn, many times the other person you're in with that is out of position will check to you, so you can check back and hope for the river's help.

By not CBing, all you're doing is allowing your opponent an opportunity to bet at you and you to fold.

And I'm not saying CBing works every time, obviously, but you will be missing out on a lot if you only CB when you hit, I love when those people come to the table because they are basically tattooing their hand on their forehead.
 
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heAdstroMan

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I would cbet when you have no back door draws.

If u have back doors then I would check call the flop.

also remember that live u don't need to bet very big since people play so face up.
 
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Sorry guys I have to disagree. If in late position with it checked to you on a draw with eight or more outs you want to be betting draws. But c betting all the time with nothing, hoping to catch. Not every time players, as you say tattoo their hands on their foreheads. If you think that. You need to play more poker. Early position, if you raise with AK. You automatically are at a disadvantage being first to act.
 
absoluthamm

absoluthamm

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Sorry guys I have to disagree. If in late position with it checked to you on a draw with eight or more outs you want to be betting draws. But c betting all the time with nothing, hoping to catch. Not every time players, as you say tattoo their hands on their foreheads. If you think that. You need to play more poker. Early position, if you raise with AK. You automatically are at a disadvantage being first to act.

I have played plenty of poker, so no need to play more to know what I'm talking about on a very cut and dry question.

I was not advocating CBing all of the time with nothing, but most of the time. And it depends on who you're playing against. My range will change based on competency of the villain. Someone who is you're average entertainment player at micro/low stakes, I will be CBing somewhere around 80% of the time. A more regular player or someone who has shown that they might actually know a thing or two, I'll be closer to 60% of the time. These examples are not necessarily with your AK hand, but hands where I PFR'd in general.

Last bit for now is that you never said anything about your position, so your last bit about automatically being at a disadvantage was never brought up, but still. You are the aggressor pre-flop and your opponent made a weak call, therefore, up until this point you have shown more strength and therefore your opponent calling a CB against a Preflop Raiser without a hand is going to be a dumb move. Even if he hit a Jack on that flop, he will be worried about calling that bet because he has no clue what you raised pre with. Could be QQ+, AJ, 55, 22 and he's dominated.
 
dmorris68

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You can certainly cbet too often, but I think most live and recreational players, being too passive, cbet way too little. Like a lot of other poker decisions, it's situational and villain dependent. But as a general rule you want to cbet any ace flop, and dry boards that likely missed villain's range. And of course always cbet for value when you have it, the exception perhaps being against a LAGtard who you know will bet into you and hang himself.

Generally speaking, I agree that a 70-80% cbet range is probably where you should be. If you cbet too little you are going to get exploited by good players stealing you blind. You'll be the one playing your hand face up, i.e cbetting only when you hit. You have to remember that most of the time, villain didn't hit either. Presumably your preflop initiative was due to a strong hand (at least that's what you hope to convey), but if you don't feel good enough to cbet most of the time, people start categorizing you as a loose-passive type that can easily be run over.

Likewise cbetting 100% is going to result in playing back at you and putting you to tough decisions after you've spewed into a bloated pot without improving. But if you're not playing too loose in the first place, cbetting is seldom a bad idea outside of specific flop textures. And of course, you adjust to the game at hand -- if you're at a table that always folds to your cbets, then widen your range and cbet 100%. If people constantly call and raise your cbets, then be slow down. Remember that an important key in poker is to assess how everyone else is playing, and try to do the opposite.

I'd say AK is almost always good for a cbet, especially against a flop like that. You have overcards and blockers to the broadway straight if villain has AQ/KQ/QT type hands. Again, villain dependent, but if you get called and don't improve on turn then you can slow/shut down.

Also a couple other observations. I assume you're talking live, because yours sounds very much like a live player mentality, which is quite different from online. Online games are tougher than live games at similar stakes, and tend to play much more aggressively. Live games have lots more limping and passive play than online, so it tends to be a lot more obvious when they have a hand. Take your example of opening for 5x. Why? Outside of specific situations that's way too much for an online game. Do you open your connectors and small-pp PP's for that much as well? How about QQ+? If your bet sizing is based on hand strength, that's a huge tell.
 
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wagon596

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Being I don't play cash games, I'm sure I have no idea. But, if you're out of position it would surely makes your decision harder than if you had position on him (her). Just my thoughts.
 
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You can certainly cbet too often, but I think most live and recreational players, being too passive, cbet way too little. Like a lot of other poker decisions, it's situational and villain dependent. But as a general rule you want to cbet any ace flop, and dry boards that likely missed villain's range. And of course always cbet for value when you have it, the exception perhaps being against a LAGtard who you know will bet into you and hang himself.

Generally speaking, I agree that a 70-80% cbet range is probably where you should be. If you cbet too little you are going to get exploited by good players stealing you blind. You'll be the one playing your hand face up, i.e cbetting only when you hit. You have to remember that most of the time, villain didn't hit either. Presumably your preflop initiative was due to a strong hand (at least that's what you hope to convey), but if you don't feel good enough to cbet most of the time, people start categorizing you as a loose-passive type that can easily be run over.

Likewise cbetting 100% is going to result in playing back at you and putting you to tough decisions after you've spewed into a bloated pot without improving. But if you're not playing too loose in the first place, cbetting is seldom a bad idea outside of specific flop textures. And of course, you adjust to the game at hand -- if you're at a table that always folds to your cbets, then widen your range and cbet 100%. If people constantly call and raise your cbets, then be slow down. Remember that an important key in poker is to assess how everyone else is playing, and try to do the opposite.

I'd say AK is almost always good for a cbet, especially against a flop like that. You have overcards and blockers to the broadway straight if villain has AQ/KQ/QT type hands. Again, villain dependent, but if you get called and don't improve on turn then you can slow/shut down.

Also a couple other observations. I assume you're talking live, because yours sounds very much like a live player mentality, which is quite different from online. Online games are tougher than live games at similar stakes, and tend to play much more aggressively. Live games have lots more limping and passive play than online, so it tends to be a lot more obvious when they have a hand. Take your example of opening for 5x. Why? Outside of specific situations that's way too much for an online game. Do you open your connectors and small-pp PP's for that much as well? How about QQ+? If your bet sizing is based on hand strength, that's a huge tell.


That's why I am getting mixed answers. Yes I am a live player.
Basically no matter You have to approach the c bet very careful. its better mainly heads up. And that's mainly what your trying to do with a raise , is to narrow the field. Factoring in the texture of the board, and how many opponents are in the hand. Has a lot to do with your decision making. Even if you raise with AK and miss the board but are in a multi way pot you have to be careful. Because the odds of someone hitting the board are better with more opponents. You should never raise with connectors unless you are in late middle or late position if folded to you. If you do. You will put yourself in a lot of uncomfortable situations . You want multi way pots with suited connectors. Because if you hit. Big payday.
 
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dmorris68

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That's why I am getting mixed answers. Yes I am a live player.
Basically no matter You have to approach the c bet very careful. its better mainly heads up. And that's mainly what your trying to do with a raise , is to narrow the field. Factoring in the texture of the board, and how many opponents are in the hand. Has a lot to do with your decision making. Even if you raise with AK and miss the board but are in a multi way pot you have to be careful. Because the odds of someone hitting the board are better with more opponents. You should never raise with connectors unless you are in late middle or late position if folded to you. If you do. You will put yourself in a lot of uncomfortable situations . You want multi way pots with suited connectors. Because if you hit. Big payday.
I pretty much agree with all of this. The number of players to the flop is certainly a factor, which also highlights another big difference between online and live. Online, at least in NL games, you typically won't have as many players seeing a flop as you do live.

Thing is you're asking on a poker forum where 90% of the people are online players, so you're going to get advice aimed at online strategy. Also if you're referring to modern books or videos, they may also be more online-centric than live.

People who only play one or the other don't always appreciate just how different the games can be.
 
RodneyC86

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I don't cbet AK into fishes online, probably even much less so against live fish, the way stories are told, they are even more hilarious than online fish.

Anyway, since they call so much and their range is essentially unreadable when they call and that they can't read your hand worth nuts, just wait for a nice A or K high board to vbet into...especially if multiway.

Cbets are awesome because it is via very balanced bet, hypothetically, cbetting 65-70 pct of flops pretty much balances your range from value,bluff and drawing hands so nicely....

Why balance against fishes though? They play so unbalanced towards calling and bluff catching that you should never bluff. Vbetting is key here, betting on draws to inflate the pot is not a terrible idea too which brings the next point...AK itself is a good drawing hand even on missed flops against the worst of fish(passive ones). If a A or K pops on turn or river(trust me, the worst fish will let you see a river) , you are usually good to go. If not, you can conceivably win in he pot just by having A-K high hand, which beats all his draws, which is going to make up a huge portion of their flop call range....

So in conclusion, I cbet nearly always vs regs, never when i miss against fish with 'some' brain postflop, and always again vs the most retarded fishes.

Edit: meant to say vbetting is key against fish in general
 
Mr Sandbag

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I play a lot of live 1/2 NL, so I understand your issue here. C-betting should usually depend mostly on the number of players in the hand, flop texture, and table dynamics.

- Number of players: Heads-up, you'll want to c-bet quite often, but not 100% of the time. Never c-bet 100% of the time - it becomes extremely exploitable. In multiway pots and out of position, checking may be the best option unless the table has been tight.

- Flop texture: Especially in multiway pots, the wetter the flop, the less often you should c-bet.

- Table dynamics: C-bet more when the table is tight and you can count on players to fold when they've missed and bet/call/raise when they've hit. C-bet less when the table is loose and players will call down with almost anything. Betting into a loose/passive player with Ace high can be quite frustrating when you showdown and you realize they called down with bottom pair.

All of the above is based on the OP's question of whether or not to c-bet after MISSING the flop.
 
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make the c bet, I mean if you don't bet, and they do bet, your assuming they have a j? majority of time they don't, and if your the one in control of the betting, you will have a point where u know for sure and could get out
 
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