*Weekly cash topic*Table selection.

I suck at making long posts and im not the best at table selecting so i will try to make this brief and painless so we can get a good discusion going.

Finding the fish.
Finding a table with a good postition and few shortys.
Rinse and repeat.
Starting tables

Finding the fish.
This is probably the easiest part.
Sorting tables with high VPIP and picking out the best ones is one way.
Colour coding the reg fishes,TAGS,LAGS,fishes,maniacs,whales ect makes this alot easier since often you will have 2 tables with exactly the same VPIP and AVG POT but one might be vastly superior.
Hopefully we can get on a few tables right aways since we obvs dont make any money while browsing the lobby.
The best tables are usualy gonna have waiting list since where probably not the only ones table selecting.
Jump on a bunch of waiting list, more then your gonna play since we want to be able to pick the right table with the right seat.
In general i dont like FR tables with more then 2SS and 6max with more then 1.


Finding a table with a good postition and few shortys.
When we finaly pick a table we should sit down and play a few hands to get a feel a for the table dynamics.
In a perfect world we would allways have a bunch of fishes and maniacs on our right and some quiet nits on our left since that way we can abuse and iso the hell out the fish with our worrying about geting 3bet alot + we can steal some blinds.
But unfortunetly we dont live in a perfect world so often we have to settle with only one fish on our right and some decent regs on our lefts.
I thing geting position on the fish is more important then geting nits on our left since even we can make alot by stealing, targeting bad(predictable) players should be our main priority.
We dont want tables with a bunch of shortys, staying at a table with 2-3 shortys(FR) is gonna be fine if we have but a good position table position and some fish around but if all your left with is a SS fish and 7 tag regs its time to move on.

Rinse and repeat.
Just because we found a table and started playing doesnt mean our job is done.
We should be constantly switching tables as the fish dry out and jumping on new waiting lists.
It might be good for your ego to battle a table with 8 decent regs and win but you be much better of finding a new and better table.

Starting tables.
If your playing of peak hour and there are few tables around or all the waiting lists have 6-7 players on it starting tables can be alot more profitable then waiting for a table because:
-Fish dont check waiting list they just jump on the first open table.
-Alot of players you might consider good turn into absolute garbage and have no idea how to adjust SH/HU.


Any way like i said i suck at doing long post so please point out any errors and hopefully we can get a discusion going!

oh and thanks Slycbnew!

sindri_93 said:

Starting tables.
If your playing of peak hour and there are few tables around or all the waiting lists have 6-7 players on it starting tables can be alot more profitable then waiting for a table because:
-Fish dont check waiting list they just jump on the first open table.
-Alot of players you might consider good turn into absolute garbage and have no idea how to adjust SH/HU.

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This is a nice point - I never do this (I only look at full tables and tables w one open seat), will have to try, thanks!

Question, how often is the second player at the table a fish and how often is he/she a reg?

I find the point of starting tables and short tables interesting. I haven't tried it myself since my FT 2 and 5nl days when I had to start more deep tables to make them exist. I owned the face off that, and now I wonder if maybe that was a factor.

I definitely recommend hopping on more lists than you want and taking more tables than you want if you can handle it. I will normally get 9 tables going at first and play an orbit on each to get some stats on people, as you probably won't have hands on many of the fish, because they aren't regs. And then I just kill tables down to the 4-6 I want to play.

I also try to look for tables with good players to the flop, and larger avg pots, as this means they're playing poorly for more money, which is always nice. I also try to get tables with shorter lists, so that the table won't have totally turned over by the time i get there, and wind up just sitting with a ton of people who were trying to table select (read: nits).

I hate me the shortys and agree that you need to control how many and where they are. Lately I've been doing this by playing nearly exclusively the 50bb min tables on stars. This is nice, as it means I don't have to bounce around as much, but seems to increase the play level. Clearly worse players is a good thing, but its kind of nice to be at a game where I can play LAG and just outplay my oppenents instead of nut peddling with stations. Still finding out if those tables are +EV or not.

I always try to accumulate piles of nits to my left for blind stealing, and will often let having a solid TAG or two on the left or even stations be enough to get me off a table that isn't giving me any very compelling reasons to stay. If you can't steal blinds like a felon at 25nl then you're at the wrong table.

Table selection is definitely an ongoing thing, and one should always be ready to cut any table. Don't stick around cause you are having a nice banter with someone in the chat box, or because that guy over there "owes you money".

pokertableratings.com

set up an account, start adding players to your "buddy list"

table selection sorted..

WiZZiM said:

pokertableratings.com

set up an account, start adding players to your "buddy list"

table selection sorted..

Click to expand...

Ditto! PTR is a good tool, I use it daily....

WiZZiM said:

pokertableratings.com

set up an account, start adding players to your "buddy list"

table selection sorted..

Click to expand...

Too bad using PTR while playing on FTP is a no-no. They have been known to temp ban those who do when they are caught.

WiZZiM said:

pokertableratings.com

set up an account, start adding players to your "buddy list"

table selection sorted..

Click to expand...

Word.

Ive actually just been setting this up a couple of hours ago (re-adding "buddies")

Off course I use this before I log onto FT and just note down the table names

Personally, I use HEM's table scanner, which is a bargain at $64. Although it only works out well when you have a lot of hands at the stake you're playing as it relies on your HEM database for stats.

I filter for tables with 0 or 1 people in the waiting list and choose tables that either have a high max vpip (i.e. a fish is sitting there) or people I don't have any stats on (i have played with all the regs at my stake, so people i don't know are all recreational players).

I also color code the players using FTP's notes while i'm playing. Different colors for regs, pro-shortstackers, fishy regs, fishes. That makes decisions much faster when I'm offered to sit at a table as I can usually immediately see if the fish is still sitting there of if he was the one to stand up and I have no more reason to play that table.

Using PTR is a terrible option. It's forbidden by FTP, and risking to lose your account for that is just plain stupid.

Starting tables is really nice and you always end up playing with some fishes, but it only works at the times of the day when the number of tables is increasing. If you play at a time where player numbers are decreasing, you'll be waiting alone at the table for a long time.

BelgoSuisse said:

I filter for tables with 0 or 1 people in the waiting list and choose tables that either have a high max vpip (i.e. a fish is sitting there) or people I don't have any stats on (i have played with all the regs at my stake, so people i don't know are all recreational players).

I also color code the players using FTP's notes while i'm playing. Different colors for regs, pro-shortstackers, fishy regs, fishes. That makes decisions much faster when I'm offered to sit at a table as I can usually immediately see if the fish is still sitting there of if he was the one to stand up and I have no more reason to play that table.

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vn - I like the straightforward, clean approach described here.

Clearly the presence of fish/fishy regs is a primary consideration for you - do you also take position into account when deciding if you will sit at a new table?

How frequently do you review your open tables and decide to drop a table? What are the primary reasons you drop a table that you've been sitting at for a while? I think you're running a relatively small number of tables, 4-6?

Sorry for the number of q's, genuinely interested in your thought process on this.

slycbnew said:

Clearly the presence of fish/fishy regs is a primary consideration for you - do you also take position into account when deciding if you will sit at a new table?

How frequently do you review your open tables and decide to drop a table? What are the primary reasons you drop a table that you've been sitting at for a while? I think you're running a relatively small number of tables, 4-6?

Sorry for the number of q's, genuinely interested in your thought process on this.

Click to expand...

Position. It's not a huge factor at 6max. The two places to your left are fine for the fish to be sitting as he'll be in the blinds when you have the BTN, so you do get to play hands in position against him. The two places to your right are fine too as you'll have position on him a lot. The only problem is when the fish sits right in front of you. He needs to be really fishy if that's the case.

Obviously you also need to be concerned about who has direct position on you. A good shortstacker or a good aggressive 3better on your immediate left means you won't be able to isolate the fish as much as you would like, so it may make the table unprofitable even thought a fish is playing.

As of leaving tables, i keep HEM's list of tables open and sorted by average vpip and monitor that constantly. Any table that drops below 22% average vpip is probably not good anymore, but obviously i'll check the actual table before deciding. I play between 6 and 8 tables usually. I leave when there are only regs left at the table, or when someone is just creating too much trouble on my left.

BelgoSuisse said:

Position. It's not a huge factor at 6max.

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just wanted to clarify this: it's not a huge factor for table selection. It is of course the most important factor when actually playing hands.

I don't play at Stars, but isn't there some feature (or setting) in HEM you can use that will display all the stats of the players in the HUD before you're dealt your first hand?

That's one of the biggest upsides to Party for me; the possibility to (legally) datamine. I don't actually datamine passively, but I do open up 18 tables (their maximum for whatever reason) and get on the waitlists for all of them, then minimize the whole bunch. As seats open up, the HUD is already up and active and I can see whether or not it's a table full of regs or if there's a huge fish, or so. Very convenient.

That also quickly lets me evaluate a table where a seat opens up before deciding to sit down at all, which comes in very handy when I'm already at max capacity, so to speak. Say I'm playing 10 tables, and then a new table becomes available. I open the table up, take a quick look, and then if it's a table with some huge fish that I really want to sit at, I take the seat, sit out, and then select "sit out next big blind" on what I consider my current "worst" table and then swap out the tables.

BelgoSuisse said:

just wanted to clarify this: it's not a huge factor for table selection. It is of course the most important factor when actually playing hands.

Click to expand...

Regarding position on fish, I consider the worst position to be when I'm exactly on the opposite side of the table. Having them to your left isn't all bad because you get to raise on the button and play pots in position versus people who don't know how to fold their blinds, which isn't all bad.

F Paulsson said:

I don't play at Stars, but isn't there some feature (or setting) in HEM you can use that will display all the stats of the players in the HUD before you're dealt your first hand?

Click to expand...

If someone knows about this, please say so - my HUD doesn't display until the second hand I actually get dealt (so I always play my first BB without the HUD), thought this was due to PS policy?

good topic dudes

I personally use HEM table scanner aswell and think you must have a solid database for you to get your full value out of it tbh.
Filters I use waitlist 0-1, high vpip players which finds fish and Im starting to use the buddy list feature abit more now which is cool. I tend to sort my scanned tables by score, avg pot or high vpip.

On the other hand I do find starting tables the easiest way to table select, you usually get 3 fish at least at 25NL/50NL but I cant speak for higher. I find that regs dont usually sit unless they are bad or think that you are bad, I would never sit just with another reg if we are 2/3 handed unless there was a big fish involved because simply there is enough fish to go around at my stakes.

F Paulsson said:

I don't play at Stars, but isn't there some feature (or setting) in HEM you can use that will display all the stats of the players in the HUD before you're dealt your first hand?

Click to expand...

http://www.holdemmanager.net/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=29

BelgoSuisse said:

Using PTR is a terrible option. It's forbidden by FTP, and risking to lose your account for that is just plain stupid.

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luckily i play on PS then isnt it?

WiZZiM said:

luckily i play on PS then isnt it?

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No it isn't.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

PokerStars said:

The following are examples of tools and services which are prohibited at all times:

[...]

54. Table Ratings aka Poker Table Ratings

[...] Also, there are some web-based results databases, and its fine to use these to look at your own results. However, you may not use such a tool while the PokerStars software is open.

Click to expand...

BelgoSuisse said:

No it isn't.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

Click to expand...

Stars is even more restrictive than FTP:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/prohibited_programs.php

The following classes of programs are not permitted while playing on Full Tilt Poker:
...

2. Programs or services that provide additional information on opponents that a player would not normally be privy to:
Certain programs, websites, and subscription services provide extra information on opponents which may not be used during play. For example, the use of shared databases of tournament histories, results, and statistics are not permitted. Specific examples include:

• Poker Table Ratings

Click to expand...

slycbnew said:

This is a nice point - I never do this (I only look at full tables and tables w one open seat), will have to try, thanks!

Question, how often is the second player at the table a fish and how often is he/she a reg?

Click to expand...

I would guess that usualy the first person to the table is a reg but i would also guess the 3rd is usualy a fish(alot of fish dont like to sit HU but will sit 3handed).
Atleast thats my experience from starting tables 10-50nl, cant speak for higher stakes.

slycbnew said:

If someone knows about this, please say so - my HUD doesn't display until the second hand I actually get dealt (so I always play my first BB without the HUD), thought this was due to PS policy?

Click to expand...

PT3 only lets my import like 50 observed hands a day or something like that, cant say for HEM.

sindri_93 said:

I would guess that usualy the first person to the table is a reg but i would also guess the 3rd is usualy a fish(alot of fish dont like to sit HU but will sit 3handed).
Atleast thats my experience from starting tables 10-50nl, cant speak for higher stakes.

Click to expand...

True as well at 100 and 200nl. You typically need two regs to start a table, then the fishes join in.

slycbnew said:

If someone knows about this, please say so - my HUD doesn't display until the second hand I actually get dealt (so I always play my first BB without the HUD), thought this was due to PS policy?

Click to expand...

This is most likely due to a setting in PT3/HEM. In PT3 (and I assume HEM) you can select how many hands you need before the HUD starts displaying. I set mine to 1 hand so it starts after they play their first hand (obviously you cant have it set to 0 to start showing up before they have played any hands yet, unless they are already in your database and you have hands on them).

Any people I already have stats on it pops up during the first hand. All people I have no stats on will take one hand for the stats to start displaying. Obviously any sample under 50-100 hands isnt going to be that reliable but its a start.

*Note this is on FT and should be no different to PS. Im certain its just a HUD setting that you can set. i.e. some people dont want their hud to pop up until they have 50+ hands on a certain player etc etc

On the note re PTR, according to another forum, PS customer service team have stated they will not be closing/banning individuals accounts for using PTR. They are attempting to eliminate the main source by cutting their tracking from their sites. Thus until they can do so, I believe PTR to be an edge that you can utilise...I mean in every other 'sport' its not illegal to look up past performance of your opponents, so why should poker be any different?