Weekly Cash Game Thread, Week 1: Exploiting Opponent Types

[slycbnew]

Ok, inaugural post for the cash game discussion thread! The votes are in, and the selected topic is Exploiting Different Opponent Types.

This kickoff post isn’t trying to identify any specific exploitable opponent types or specific opportunities, I'm just introducing the topic. So ask questions, pick out situations you find interesting, identify behaviors you think are exploitable, identify behaviors you want to know how to defend against, and discuss!

(side note - if you’re uncomfortable posting in the thread because you’re worried you’re going to ask a “dumb” question, pls feel free to pm me)

Tools

Since this is the first thread for this discussion group, I'll mention a couple of tools you should be aware of if you’re not already:

Pokerstove - This is a free App. If you don’t already have it, you have no excuse to not get it and play with it (www.pokerstove.com). It allows you to plug in hands and see how they do against other hands, or to plug in ranges of hands and see how they do against other ranges of hands. If you know someone is playing 30% of the hands they’re dealt, you can plug in “30%” and see what hands are in that range.

HUD/PT3/HEM/others - A HUD (Heads Up Display) will display statistics about the players at your table, based on hands you’ve played against those players. At it’s most basic, it’ll tell you how often they’ve voluntarily put money in the pot preflop (VPIP), how often they’re raising preflop (PFR), and what their Aggression Factor is (AF - this is the ratio between how often they initiate action by betting or raising, i.e., play aggressively, against how often they call, i.e. play passively).

The most common HUD’s in use are PokerTracker 3 and Holdem Manager (there are others, but I don’t remember what they’re called J ). PT3 and HEM also track all the hands you play so you can review your own play after your sessions. These are not free, but can be downloaded on a trial basis. If you don’t use one, but are interested enough in learning how to crush cash games to participate in this thread, you should give consideration to purchasing one or the other at some point in time.

Opponent Types

At the simplest level, we generally classify players as being relatively loose (puts money in the pot preflop with lots of hands, which range from premium to junky) to relatively tight (puts money in the pot preflop with relatively few, presumably better, hands), and as being relatively passive (calls a lot, rarely takes initiative, rarely raises, rarely puts pressure on other players) to relatively aggressive (bets a lot, raises a lot, 3bets a lot, less likely to call).

You also want to recognize to a certain extent what motivates your opponents to play poker. As an example, regs are going to take the game more “seriously” than recreational players - which in some ways makes them easier to play against, since their actions are in some ways more predictable than recreational players. Recreational players, esp the fish, are a huge opportunity though, since they’ll frequently make “incorrect” decisions about when to put money in the pot.

At micro, the majority of players you'll play against are fish, you won't start seeing a lot of regs until 25nl or so.

If you use a HUD, you can be a lot more specific when profiling players than simply calling them LAG, TAG, Loose Passive (i.e., fish), or Tight Passive. You can get extremely detailed information very quickly about opponents whom you’ve played a lot of hands with, including how frequently they cbet, how often they fold to cbets, how often they 3bet, how often they fold to 3bets,… the list goes on and on. (side note - multitablers in particular will want to use a HUD because it’s difficult to keep notes on everyone playing on all your tables - the HUD’s a shortcut).

So, when we say we want to exploit opponent types, we’re really looking for general habits that types of players have and how to take advantage of those. As a really easy example, if you have position on a tight passive nit, putting pressure on him by betting/raising post flop will allow you to steal your share of small pots (nit’s will rarely call w mediocre draws or whiffed hands oop), and any show of strength from a passive player in response to your aggression is just not going to be a bluff often enough to bother calling.

Here's my personal favorite fish exploitable habit - they call too much. How to exploit it - bet frequently.

If you frequently use a particular habit or set of habits of your opponents for exploitation purposes, and you use a HUD, you can customize your HUD to add that statistic. For example, you’ve got a guy in front of you who’s playing a LAG style and opening a lot of hands pf from middle and late position. Since he’s opening so many hands, he can’t be strong all the time that he’s actually opening, right? It’d be great to know how often he folds to 3bets, and it’d be great to know how often he folds to flop cbets. You can 3bet light against a player who folds a lot to 3bets cuz he’ll fold a lot of the time. Even if he doesn’t fold a lot of the time, if he frequently folds to flop cbets, you can still 3bet him to death.

Note that it’s not necessary to have a HUD to be able to do this - it’s just easier to find these spots quickly w a HUD than without one. If you multitable a significant number of tables, you’ll find it difficult to pick out these spots without using a HUD, because you won‘t be able to pay enough attention to each and every action on each table to get a feel for, as an example, who folds to 3bets a lot.

BalugaWhale, for example, doesn't use a HUD (if you don't know who he is, he's responsible for the Baluga Theorem, see link in this excellent post https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/ring-game-hand-analysis-required-reading-144488/), and has the simplest classification of villain types I can imagine - bad passive, bad aggressive, and good aggressive (note that he doesn't have a "good passive" category) - but he doesn't massively multitable either.

Reading Material

There are actually quite a few excellent threads on this topic already, and rather than re-hashing what others have written, I’ll just put a couple of links here:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/10k-post-micro-stakes-full-ring-112836/

Excellent guide to how to beat microstakes FR games. There's a section titled HUD Stats and Player Types that's particularly relevant here.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-software-tools-61/

Specific discussion of customizing a HUD configuration to be able to exploit specific villain behaviors.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-1-why-147871/

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-2-nits-148007/

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-3-loosepassive-148760/

OK, confession time - I cheated when I proposed this topic. A group of us discussed this topic last year. However, we never really finished it I don't think, and I see a lot of posts from newer members that make me think it's a topic that will continue to provide a lot of value to the forum.

dsvw56 did a fantastic job of putting together these posts, hoping we can put together another couple of profiles here - LAG and TAG are notably missing from the list...

 

[redwulf25_ci]

Tools

Since this is the first thread for this discussion group, I'll mention a couple of tools you should be aware of if you’re not already:

Pokerstove - This is a free app. If you don’t already have it, you have no excuse to not get it and play with it (www.pokerstove.com). It allows you to plug in hands and see how they do against other hands, or to plug in ranges of hands and see how they do against other ranges of hands. If you know someone is playing 30% of the hands they’re dealt, you can plug in “30%” and see what hands are in that range.

HUD/PT3/HEM/others - A HUD (Heads Up Display) will display statistics about the players at your table, based on hands you’ve played against those players. At it’s most basic, it’ll tell you how often they’ve voluntarily put money in the pot preflop (VPIP), how often they’re raising preflop (PFR), and what their Aggression Factor is (AF - this is the ratio between how often they initiate action by betting or raising, i.e., play aggressively, against how often they call, i.e. play passively).

The most common HUD’s in use are PokerTracker 3 and Holdem Manager (there are others, but I don’t remember what they’re called J ). PT3 and HEM also track all the hands you play so you can review your own play after your sessions. These are not free, but can be downloaded on a trial basis. If you don’t use one, but are interested enough in learning how to crush cash games to participate in this thread, you should give consideration to purchasing one or the other at some point in time.

Are any of these tools permitted on pokerstars? I've been building a moderately decent bankroll from the $2 they credited to my account last month and don't want to loose it by breaking their rules.

 

[salim271]

Thanks for the post and links! Only thing, the pokerstove hyperlink wont take you to the site because a parentheses is in the link next to .com, a small edit but i clicked the link like 3 times before i checked because I'm stupid.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Are any of these tools permitted on Pokerstars? I've been building a moderately decent bankroll from the $2 they credited to my account last month and don't want to loose it by breaking their rules.

Yes, they are perfectly legal. Pokerstove is not a tool you'll use during play though. It's for review and familiarization of hand ranges outside of play.

 

[F Paulsson]

I'll get back to this thread after I get some sleep, and am mostly just marking this thread so I don't miss it in the future, but I'll throw this in for your consideration:

In my experience, a lot of players are quite capable of having different tendencies on different streets. Some are very loose preflop but squeaky tight on the flop. Some will call with virtually everything on the flop but fold the turn unimproved, etc. When classifying a "loose" player for exploitation, it's very important to understand that "loose preflop" does not at all have to mean loose postflop and vice versa.

I think some sample hands (e.g. T8s on the button, 88 in the blinds, etc.) with a fix scenario but swapping player styles out for villain could be a good idea for this thread to hightlight the differences.

 

[Double-A]

My house, and brain, are exploding with noise right now... I've tried this response three times, lol!

Super-loose/aggro opponents always put me at a loss.

I'm talking about players who open raise from any position, at seemingly every opportunity. Then continue their aggression through the flop and turn. I tend to want to "wait for a spot" to play back at them. That never works...

Pre-flop, you 3bet them w/ KK and they just lay down. And then they raise the next hand... Or, they call and bet the pot on the flop. Which, is never a good flop for your kings. Or, they check/call and then bet the turn...

I'm never trying to play the table cop... I need advice on playing against these opponents, knowing that I'm going to be forced to play out of my comfort zone (marginal hands in raised pots) or get run over.

If the guy is a good loose/aggressive player then I'll just find another table... I'm talking about bad loose/aggressive players who seem like they're trying to give stacks away.

Help?

 

[Double-A]

BalugaWhale, for example, doesn't use a HUD (if you don't know who he is, he's responsible for the Baluga Theorem, see link in this excellent post https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/ring-game-hand-analysis-required-reading-144488/),

I just saw this. It looks like awesomeness.

 

[Marginal]

My house, and brain, are exploding with noise right now... I've tried this response three times, lol!

Super-loose/aggro opponents always put me at a loss.

I'm talking about players who open raise from any position, at seemingly every opportunity. Then continue their aggression through the flop and turn. I tend to want to "wait for a spot" to play back at them. That never works...

Pre-flop, you 3bet them w/ KK and they just lay down. And then they raise the next hand... Or, they call and bet the pot on the flop. Which, is never a good flop for your kings. Or, they check/call and then bet the turn...

I'm never trying to play the table cop... I need advice on playing against these opponents, knowing that I'm going to be forced to play out of my comfort zone (marginal hands in raised pots) or get run over.

If the guy is a good loose/aggressive player then I'll just find another table... I'm talking about bad loose/aggressive players who seem like they're trying to give stacks away.

Help?

In my experience with these players, it is best to just let them be the aggressor while adjusting your calling range. Be prepared to call multiple triple barrels with 1 pair type hands and such.

In the example above, if he has a tendency to fold to 3 bet a lot then just start 3 betting him light and trying to exploit that leak.

 

[LuckyChippy]

Dunno if it's said in the threads sly posted but for those who don't know the 'perfect' seating selection is one with nits to our left and fishies to our right. Heres why:

Nits fold too much preflop. This means easy money stealing with any two cards on the button, this can be very profitable.
We also like to have players on our left who call too much but fold alot to c-bets, these are even better as we can just keep milking them till they wise up. Use your hud to figure out whos who.

If we have a fish to our right we have direct position on them in every hand except one. We can control the action from there and better exploit their particular weaknesses. If they call too much but rarely get aggro then when they check to us we bet bet bet. If they donk bet then we know we can be careful. We don't really want nits to our right as if they fold it doesn't mean anything, if they enter a pot we'll probably have to fold.

This may stray into table selection but I think it is relevant enough.

EDIT: Really good thread idea, (I think it was marginal's idea) i've been waiting for something like this for a while and i'm really looking forward to it.

 

[slycbnew]

I'll get back to this thread after I get some sleep, and am mostly just marking this thread so I don't miss it in the future, but I'll throw this in for your consideration:

In my experience, a lot of players are quite capable of having different tendencies on different streets. Some are very loose preflop but squeaky tight on the flop. Some will call with virtually everything on the flop but fold the turn unimproved, etc. When classifying a "loose" player for exploitation, it's very important to understand that "loose preflop" does not at all have to mean loose postflop and vice versa.

I think some sample hands (e.g. T8s on the button, 88 in the blinds, etc.) with a fix scenario but swapping player styles out for villain could be a good idea for this thread to hightlight the differences.

Looking at actions by street is a neat point - I know I personally don't pay enough attention to how Villain's behavior changes street by street, and tend to classify players as passive or agg postflop based on AFq, c/r, etc. without paying attention to what street we're playing.

Also, looking at actions by position is a key point. Saying someone is loose because their VPIP is relatively high doesn't mean he's loose from EP necessarily.

For those of you who haven't played with a HUD much, you should look at the link in OP called "6max HUD Stats and How I Use Them" - you'll see the habits of players listed by position and by street.

Putting in some concrete examples as FP suggests is, I think, a really good idea. If nobody else does this in the next several hours, I'll put some up in my evening - but pls feel free to go ahead and do this.

Double-A, I think the bad LAG presents some good initial example opportunities, care to plug in a few scenarios, including some sample flops/turns and position?

LuckyChippy, care to put up a couple of examples of BTN/CO situations w nits/TAGs/LAGs/fish in or out of position?

 

[Munchrs]

what do you guys think about raising any unopened pot from any position when the SB and BB are nits. What type of range are you willing to do this with?

 

[marknz88]

what do you guys think about raising any unopened pot from any position when the SB and BB are nits. What type of range are you willing to do this with?

Depending whos behind you (assuming your MP and theres no LAGS behind) I would raise 4xbb with ATC if the blinds are super nits. If Lags behind then I would adjust range to depending on the opponent. Obviously if they call they probably mean business and if you dont hit a set or decent draw im folding. If they raise, depending on my cards ill consider calling their 3bet. If your in the CO/BT and the pots unopened then definitely get a raise in there with ATC if the blinds are tight.

Ill attempt to play the player rather than the cards.

PS. Good thread, look forward to more weekly cash game tips

 

[bazerk]

Just getting my subscription in...

Great OP slycbnew!

marginal, thanks for getting this whole 'weekly series' program started!

 

[Munchrs]

Depending whos behind you (assuming your MP and theres no LAGS behind) I would raise 4xbb with ATC if the blinds are super nits. If Lags behind then I would adjust range to depending on the opponent. Obviously if they call they probably mean business and if you dont hit a set or decent draw im folding. If they raise, depending on my cards ill consider calling their 3bet. If your in the CO/BT and the pots unopened then definitely get a raise in there with ATC if the blinds are tight.

Ill attempt to play the player rather than the cards.

PS. Good thread, look forward to more weekly cash game tips

do the player types behind you really matter that much because of the percieved hand strength that our opponents have of our hand.

 

[slycbnew]

do the player types behind you really matter that much because of the percieved hand strength that our opponents have of our hand.

That'll depend some on the villains, I think, and whether they're paying attention, and some on our own image.

As CO and BTN, I'm perfectly happy to open really wide w nits in the blinds.

I'm a pretty tight player, so if the guys behind are paying attention, I'll get some respect. However, my fold to 3bet% is fairly high. If I see someone behind who likes to 3bet in position, and I think he knows that my fold to 3bet% is pretty high, and if I think he has the same plan regarding stealing blinds from nits, I'm not too comfortable opening up my range a lot in MP or EP.

That's a whole lot of "ifs" at micro - I start thinking about these things a lot more at say 50nl than 10nl. If all those "ifs" apply to someone behind me, I'm looking at a reasonably good reg.

 

[slycbnew]

Depending whos behind you (assuming your MP and theres no LAGS behind) I would raise 4xbb with ATC if the blinds are super nits. If Lags behind then I would adjust range to depending on the opponent. Obviously if they call they probably mean business and if you dont hit a set or decent draw im folding. If they raise, depending on my cards ill consider calling their 3bet. If your in the CO/BT and the pots unopened then definitely get a raise in there with ATC if the blinds are tight.

Ill attempt to play the player rather than the cards.

PS. Good thread, look forward to more weekly cash game tips

Good comments marknz, welcome to the thread!

 

[Munchrs]

That'll depend some on the villains, I think, and whether they're paying attention, and some on our own image.

As CO and BTN, I'm perfectly happy to open really wide w nits in the blinds.

I'm a pretty tight player, so if the guys behind are paying attention, I'll get some respect. However, my fold to 3bet% is fairly high. If I see someone behind who likes to 3bet in position, and I think he knows that my fold to 3bet% is pretty high, and if I think he has the same plan regarding stealing blinds from nits, I'm not too comfortable opening up my range a lot in MP or EP.

That's a whole lot of "ifs" at micro - I start thinking about these things a lot more at say 50nl than 10nl. If all those "ifs" apply to someone behind me, I'm looking at a reasonably good reg.

that brings up an interesting concept. 3betting tags with reasonably high steal attempts when we are on the button villian is CO. Blinds are nits. In these areas i tend to open my 3 bet range way up, but find that im a bit spewy when i have a weired hand like KTo and the flop comes T high rainbow with no other draws and villian is betting into me after calling a 3 bet preflop.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

what do you guys think about raising any unopened pot from any position when the SB and BB are nits.

I don't like it. I only open up my opening range when there are fishes in the blinds. Because I want to play pots with fishes especially when i'll have position on them. Playing pots with fishes is how you make money at this game.

 

[marknz88]

do the player types behind you really matter that much because of the percieved hand strength that our opponents have of our hand.

Ultimately I believe it depends on the players skill level.

If they are a reg then they will probably be thinking at levels 4/5 and thus your perceived hand range (along with table image if tight) will keep the regs out with their lower range hands. But lags will be lags and enter any pot they see fit. Likewise if they are a fish, they wont take your raise out of position to mean much and thus you could find your self in a multiway pot that leaves you spewing a lot of chips when you miss the flops.

Ideally my aim with these pots is to just take the blinds down pre-flop (essentially stealing out of position). If not and I hit something solid its a bonus else im laying the hand down if my cebt is called/raised.

**I should note this is all good in theory, but doesnt work at microstakes. (this is actually leak of mine that I'm trying to plug until I get to limits with more competent players)

 

[slycbnew]

that brings up an interesting concept. 3betting tags with reasonably high steal attempts when we are on the button villian is CO. Blinds are nits. In these areas i tend to open my 3 bet range way up, but find that im a bit spewy when i have a weired hand like KTo and the flop comes T high rainbow with no other draws and villian is betting into me after calling a 3 bet preflop.

Yes, this is a very interesting scenario! Here's how I think through these - love to hear other opinions.

First, calling 3bets oop is generally a leak. When you call a 3bet oop, you've lost initiative, you have to decide whether to donk bet or c/r any flop you hit (i.e., you don't have position, which is a big disadvantage), you're usually telegraphing your range (I usually assume a TAG who calls a 3bet oop is sitting on AQ+, 88-JJ, occasionally QQ), and you're playing a 3bet pot (i.e., a bloated pot).

So when I see a TAG call a 3bet oop, I make a note of that and am more likely to 3bet him wide in the future. If we make it to showdown, I'll also note what he called the 3bet w.

So let's say he donks the T hi uncoordinated rainbow flop, no draws there. He's going to show up w, I think, a set or a pair (the pair may or may not be higher than the T, but is almost never a pair of TT's), and I generally think the pair is more likely than the set. If I see that he donks flops relatively frequently (I keep this stat in my HUD), I generally raise the donk bet 2.5x or so (actually, I usually raise donk bets out of habit, so...) - pairs less than T generally fold I think, JJ/QQ sometimes fold and sometimes shove (under the assumption that we may be playing AK), sets always shove.

On the other hand, let's say he c/r's flop or turn - I'm bailing 95% of the time, I think the set is much more likely, unless his c/r flop is pretty high. I almost always credit c/r turn as baluga (your TP is no good if you get c/r'd on the turn).

Finally, the more passive the player is postflop, the more I'll give credit to aggression, the more aggressive the player is postflop, the more likely I'll play back at him.

 

[pifan]

Y

.

. If I see that he donks flops relatively frequently (I keep this stat in my HUD), I generally raise the donk bet 2.5x or so (actually, I usually raise donk bets out of habit, so...) -

is this profitable, and do you find that someone that donkbets into you is usually feeling where he stands in the flop or is he just trying to steal it from you.

also does his bet size vs pot size have any influence on if and how you reraise the donkbet.

 

[slycbnew]

The donk bet is very often a probe bet, I think, w middle pairs trying to figure out if we whiffed a big A or actually have a QQ+ type hand, esp from a guy who calls a 3bet oop - that's why I do it out of habit, the donker usually can't continue to a raise and will usually fold immediately.

If he calls the flop raise, I end up checking the turn behind unimproved, unless there's a scare card I can use like an A or a draw completing.

Bet size would influence me - I rarely see a donk bet for more than 2/3 pot, though, so I haven't given it much thought (donk bets for 1/2 pot or less are almost always, I think, a smaller pocket pair). I suppose if someone donk potted the flop, or donk overbet the flop, I'm not sure how I'd interpret it - it shouldn't be a set (they'd be looking to c/r flop or turn most of the time, unless they're particularly tricky or bad), and I'd be looking for draws on the board that would justify a psb, I dunno.

WVHillbilly and others have spent more time thinking about donk bets than me - thoughts?

 

[pifan]

I don't like it. I only open up my opening range when there are fishes in the blinds. Because I want to play pots with fishes especially when i'll have position on them. Playing pots with fishes is how you make money at this game.

since were wanting to play pots with fishes what stat do you use to classify a fish. belgo

and do you think trying to steal nits blinds is not profitable from mid position if you have a tight table image

or is it you find it more profitable to leave the nits alone and just exploit the fish.

 

[thepokerkid123]

and do you think trying to steal nits blinds is not profitable from mid position if you have a tight table image

You're relying on all of the players behind you being observent enough to know you're playing tight, and even then it's a relatively small portion of their range that goes from calling/raising to folding based on your image.

I suggest being more concerned about how likely the players behind you are to fold than the players in the blinds. Most of your steal range is going to be in a very bad spot if caught OOP, whilst it will do quite well with position, so much so that getting a call from the blinds on a steal attempt is often a good thing.

Also, just your steals from the button and CO should be frequently pushing the limits of what the table will let you get away with, stealing regularly from MP seems pointless.

 

[WVHillbilly]

The donk bet is very often a probe bet, I think, w middle pairs trying to figure out if we whiffed a big A or actually have a QQ+ type hand, esp from a guy who calls a 3bet oop - that's why I do it out of habit, the donker usually can't continue to a raise and will usually fold immediately.

If he calls the flop raise, I end up checking the turn behind unimproved, unless there's a scare card I can use like an A or a draw completing.

Bet size would influence me - I rarely see a donk bet for more than 2/3 pot, though, so I haven't given it much thought (donk bets for 1/2 pot or less are almost always, I think, a smaller pocket pair). I suppose if someone donk potted the flop, or donk overbet the flop, I'm not sure how I'd interpret it - it shouldn't be a set (they'd be looking to c/r flop or turn most of the time, unless they're particularly tricky or bad), and I'd be looking for draws on the board that would justify a psb, I dunno.

WVHillbilly and others have spent more time thinking about donk bets than me - thoughts?

Against bad players the donk bet is rarely anything so I completely polarize my range and raise them when I miss, call when I have TP or better. Against better players donk bets can actually signify strength (they know the donk looks weak so they do it to illicit the donk bet raise reflex) so I pretty much fold or float my misses and raise the hands I'm willing to play for stacks.