Waxing philosophically (Warning: fuzzy stuff inside)

NineLions

NineLions

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I was building myself a list of things that change and which determine the outcome of any given poker hand, originally with the idea of trying to list how important any one of them might be. Experience / skill level you can't change game by game, but these others do change.

I guess you could try to rank them in importance, but then that would depend on the situation. At any given moment, one may outweigh any of the others, so I gave up trying to rank them even otherwise you really have to specify the situation.


Another think to think about is how much of this is under your control, or how much can you even influence or not. A lot, like your cards, your opponents' cards, community cards, blinds, bubble, are totally out of your control. Others like pot size, stack size, maybe even opponent's playing style and position you can try to manipulate to some extent.

It's interesting to think how small an edge you actually get to work with. And I guess the reason I started making this list is because I realized how much mood and attitude affects that small edge.



List of factors/considerations
  • Your cards
  • Estimate of opponent's cards
  • Estimate of what opponent thinks your cards are
  • Community cards on the table
  • Community cards to come
  • Position
  • Pot size
  • Number of player still active
  • Current bets on the table
  • Your table image/playing style
  • Opponent's playing ability/style
  • Mood/attitude
  • Stack size
  • Blinds/ante size
  • Bubble
Any thing else I can add to my list?


:hmmmm:
 
ChuckTs

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POT odds

:)

EDIT: I guess that goes hand in hand with 'current bets on the table', ie the amount to call.
 
ChuckTs

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NineLions said:
List of factors/considerations
  • Your cards
  • Estimate of opponent's cards
  • Estimate of what opponent thinks your cards are
  • Estimate of what your opponent thinks you think his cards are
  • Estimate of what you think your opponent thinks you think his cards are
  • etc
  • Community cards on the table
  • Community cards to come
  • Position
  • Pot size
  • Number of player still active
  • Current bets on the table
  • Your table image/playing style
  • Opponent's playing ability/style
  • Mood/attitude
  • Stack size
  • Blinds/ante size
  • Bubble
Any thing else I can add to my list?


:hmmmm:
Click to expand...

:p

But really, I think Harrington's 'elements of a hand' pretty much covers it all:

-Status of tourney
-# of players at table
-who those players are (ie table image)
-your stack size
-opponents' stack sizes
-your position in relation to the aggressive and passive players
-bets in front of you
-# of players left to act
-pot odds
-position postflop
-your cards

sorry, posts getting messier with every beer I drink :)

ps one thing that comes to mind here is a quote from Zen and the art of Poker, which I'm reading now. Basically it says that once you reach a certain level, people make mistakes so rarely that the real edge comes from how far you've come with mastering life instead of the actual game. Someone in a great mental state who has a mediocre skill level could very well slaughter a very experienced player who's steaming.
 
NineLions

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I'm reading the same book, Chuck, which is what led me down this path of reflection. (sheesh, it's sounding more and more religeous or something :))

Is that from HOH 1? Interesting that "your cards" are last on the list. And for someone like that, attitude/mood probably doesn't even factor in. I picture Action Dan like a machine.
 
ChuckTs

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NineLions said:
I'm reading the same book, Chuck, which is what led me down this path of reflection. (sheesh, it's sounding more and more religeous or something :))
Click to expand...

lol exactly...you can imagine what my family thinks of me when they walk in on me asleep beside a book with the title "Zen and the Art of Poker"...

NineLions said:
Is that from HOH 1? Interesting that "your cards" are last on the list. And for someone like that, attitude/mood probably doesn't even factor in. I picture Action Dan like a machine.
Click to expand...

Ya, I think discipline-wise (and strategically, too) he's flawless compared to us. I definitely think that a player's mood/bankroll status/etc should factor in somewhere though, regardless how 'good' you are.
 
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ChuckTs said:
Ya, I think discipline-wise (and strategically, too) he's flawless compared to us. I definitely think that a player's mood/bankroll status/etc should factor in somewhere though, regardless how 'good' you are
Click to expand...


According to Barry Greenstein, you also have to be sexually satisfied. If you're sexually frustrated he says you're likely not going to play good poker. I have to agree...
 
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rob5775

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But, on the flipside, how about athletes and boxers who refrain from sex before big games and fights?




(Of course that's not what I would do... devils advocate thing you know):evil:
 
NineLions

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According to Zen / Poker, that's not an apt comparison.

You want to see excitement, testosterone, energy in your sports teams, but not for poker. For poker, you want only superficial enjoyment of winning, superficial level disappointment in losing.


More like Bobby Fischer than Muhamid Ali?


Anyway, I'm not planning to give up sex to improve my poker game. But that's just me.
 
rob5775

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"Profoundly stable and calm, like a gigantic mountain, you cannot be disturbed by cravings or external conditions" - Ying-An

Like I said, just playing the advocate.


I would have sex prior, satiate the cravings.:D
 
NineLions

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What about during; too distracting?



I mean, playing online, of course. :)
 
rob5775

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If one can multitable, one can bump uglies while online
:knuddel:

That would be quoting myself of course.:p
 
Irexes

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When playing poker, play poker.
When having sex, have sex.


ZATAOP don't half make you think.

Assuming a certain level of technical competance, state of mind is for me the most important thing.
 
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Nine Lions said:
Anyway, I'm not planning to give up sex to improve my poker game. But that's just me
Click to expand...


Hell no, I'm not doing that either. But that's just it. Mr Greenstein states that you MUST be satisfied, as the opposite will negatively affect your game.
 
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dj11

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rob5775 said:
But, on the flipside, how about athletes and boxers who refrain from sex before big games and fights?




(Of course that's not what I would do... devils advocate thing you know):evil:
Click to expand...

Then to compound thier loss, they have to think about how unsatified they were !

Imagine a beat up boxer, face all swollen, trying to get lucky after a thurough drubbing.......
 
NineLions

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Irexes said:
Assuming a certain level of technical competance, state of mind is for me the most important thing.
Click to expand...


Getting back on topic a bit more, this is one thing that making this list helps me see. A lot is simply out of a player's control, and much of it we only have some say in it.

Of what's left, you can't change your level of skill / experience come gametime, but I know my approach/mood/focus/attention has a big influence over the choices I make, even if I'm not very aware of it at the time.
 
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Sure thing NL. There are several authors that talk about this. Here's Phil Gordon: "Keep the acronym H.A.L.T. near the top of your mind. If you are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired, you shouldn't be at the table. Save yourself the embarassment of blowing your bankroll in a less-than-tip-top state of mind...simply H.A.L.T.".

Mr Gordon, in the same book, also quotes poker author John Fox: " The best player in the world with a temporary dulled brain is not even a match for an average player using full concentration".

This topic is clearly taken into serious consideration by many top players. Your state of mind will absolutely alter your game.
 
Mojomax747

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NineLions said:
I was building myself a list of things that change and which determine the outcome of any given poker hand, originally with the idea of trying to list how important any one of them might be. Experience / skill level you can't change game by game, but these others do change.

I guess you could try to rank them in importance, but then that would depend on the situation. At any given moment, one may outweigh any of the others, so I gave up trying to rank them even otherwise you really have to specify the situation.


Another think to think about is how much of this is under your control, or how much can you even influence or not. A lot, like your cards, your opponents' cards, community cards, blinds, bubble, are totally out of your control. Others like pot size, stack size, maybe even opponent's playing style and position you can try to manipulate to some extent.

It's interesting to think how small an edge you actually get to work with. And I guess the reason I started making this list is because I realized how much mood and attitude affects that small edge.



List of factors/considerations
  • Your cards
  • Estimate of opponent's cards
  • Estimate of what opponent thinks your cards are
  • Community cards on the table
  • Community cards to come
  • Position
  • Pot size
  • Number of player still active
  • Current bets on the table
  • Your table image/playing style
  • Opponent's playing ability/style
  • Mood/attitude
  • Stack size
  • Blinds/ante size
  • Bubble
Any thing else I can add to my list?


:hmmmm:
Click to expand...


Reads............:deal:
 
NineLions

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joeeagles said:
Sure thing NL. There are several authors that talk about this. Here's Phil Gordon: "Keep the acronym H.A.L.T. near the top of your mind. If you are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired, you shouldn't be at the table. Save yourself the embarassment of blowing your bankroll in a less-than-tip-top state of mind...simply H.A.L.T.".
Click to expand...

Which book is this, joe? I've got the green one and read the blue but I don't remember seeing that.
 
Kenzie 96

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ChuckTs said:
lol exactly...you can imagine what my family thinks of me when they walk out in the back yard in the morning & find me fast asleep & naked with a copy of Zen & the Art of poker sitting under the last bottle of Molsem.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
 
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J

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Nine Lions said:
Which book is this, joe? I've got the green one and read the blue but I don't remember seeing that.
Click to expand...


The book is "poker the real deal", by Phil Gordon. This book is intended mostly for beginners, it was my first poker book. Even if its for beginners it still has its value and I find it very entertaining. Its not necessarily a book that I would suggest you to buy, but it sure can't hurt and there are some very interesting chapters (like the history of poker) that you won't find elsewhere, or at least I haven't seen them.
 
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NineLions

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Reads I would include under opponent's playing style along with what I think they have.

position/stacks I would include under position/stacks.

It's a matter of how you want to lay something like this out, I guess. How much detail/distinction between items
 
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