Want to expand my 3-bet light range

Hello people!

Currently my 3betPF is around 4.6% over 8000 hands. I would like to increase it. Currently my range looks lilke this:

54s-98s... is 54 a good place to start or does 65 give more possibilities post flop? Also is it dangerous to increase my range to T9 or JT because of the possibility of making a pair and getting out kickered?
75s-T8s... would 64 be a better place to start? I would imagine 3betting with QT and J9 could spell trouble?

I think that most of my range comes from 3betting for value, TT+, KTs+, QJs+ depending on position. I rarely 3-bet with 99 and have read that 3-betting with TT is usually "ridiculously awful". If this is true and someone could explain why in plain english that would be great!

Is there an ideal proportion of value:light %s to 3bet?

I have read that baby suited AX can be added with good results? I guess this is due to wheel-straight and nut-flush possibilities post flop while ensuring your kicker is weak enough to stop you going after TP against multiple callers.

My main question is relating to adding NON-suited connectors and gappers to my range. After all they do come along three times as often!

Thinking about it, would a non-suited connector not have more possibilities post-flop than a suited gapper?

Ok how about the following:

A2s-A5s
65s-T9s... 54s has less straight possibilities and JTs could spell trouble.
65o-T9o... 54o has less straight possibilities and JTo could spell trouble.
64s-J9s... I think suited gappers have 75% of straight possiblities but I guess they have just as much chance to make 2pair, trips or flushes.
64o-J9o... REALLY NOT SURE ABOUT THESE?

What do you guys think?

Frank.

Deceitful_Frank said:

Currently my 3betPF is around 4.6% over 8000 hands. I would like to increase it.

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You're thinking about this all wrong.

I'll give you a hint: You wrote 289 words and not one of them was "opponent" or "villain".

I think I wrote something about this once: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/

c9h13no3 said:

You're thinking about this all wrong.

I'll give you a hint: You wrote 289 words and not one of them was "opponent" or "villain".

I think I wrote something about this once: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/

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I get your point and yes I know it depends!

I understand that you 3bet light against opponents depending on their perceived range.

If he is in late position, his fold to 3bet is over 75% (decent sample) and his steal % is a lot higher than his PFR. This would suggest that he is positionally aware and is likely to be raising with weaker holdings. Is there a limping callng station due to act first or after him about to get great odds if he calls?

I think I do understand the concept a little better than you think I do!

I get when you should and should not be 3-betting the villain but I assumed that you need to have at least SOME options after the flop that don't get in the way of his calling hand if he decides not the fold?

I am just really asking about what hands give me those extra options so I can maximize the number of opportunities to exploit positionally aware people who fold too often to aggression?

...I think was 2/176 words or 1.13%!

I would stick to 3betting a purely value range until you move up in stakes.

It going to take a LONG time before I am crushing 10NL well enough and rolled for $700+ to move up to 25NL. At least 25% of villains I play against are 3betting light and my fold to 3bet% is like 90%!

I don't see how I can stand a chance if I wait for 25NL

Deceitful_Frank said:

It going to take a LONG time before I am crushing 10NL well enough and rolled for $700+ to move up to 25NL. At least 25% of villains I play against are 3betting light and my fold to 3bet% is like 90%!

I don't see how I can stand a chance if I wait for 25NL

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Well 3betting light is not the secret to crushing 10NL.

Value bet and play pots in position.

3betting light is self defeating, people are looking for reasons to call .. start 3betting light and they will start calling you with hands like KJo and they will refuse to fold postflop if they hit. If you hold AK this is great, if you hold 66 this is not so great.

Deceitful_Frank said:

If he is in late position, his fold to 3bet is over 75% (decent sample) and his steal % is a lot higher than his PFR

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If this type of player is on your right at 10NL, leave the table. There's like 4 regs total at this limit, so it shouldn't be any trouble finding a table where you don't have a reg to your right.

3 betting TT+ in position is not bad.

The bigger issue I'm seeing from your post is that you want to 3 bet light just to do it. 10NL is full of fish. If you 3 bet with a hand chart of suited connectors, you get called, and they hit, they probably are not folding. That's good if you have them dominated, it's not good if you are bluffing with suited connectors that make a great hand like 1 in 20 hands.

Feel free to disagree, but 3 betting light is really more of a balancing play when playing against regulars. It sounds like you got Fancy Play Syndrome because you are bored. Get rid of it, just play your solid values and you'll get paid off.

It also sounds like your issue isn't 3 betting, it's table selection.

Stu_Ungar said:

Well 3betting light is not the secret to crushing 10NL.

Value bet and play pots in position.

3betting light is self defeating, people are looking for reasons to call .. start 3betting light and they will start calling you with hands like KJo and they will refuse to fold postflop if they hit. If you hold AK this is great, if you hold 66 this is not so great.

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I would NEVER 3bet with 66. I see the other's point too that it seems I just want to 3-bet light because everone else is doing it but I can see that if everyone else IS doing it then they are obviously watching for it too!
This just means that they are waiting to 4-bet me with air and put me in difficult spots.

Maybe the key for me is to have a better balance of hands that I do 3-bet with so that when I am doing it for value I have better cards (not ATs KQs etc) Also if my 3bet was just below the level where most opponents stop respecting my raise... 4%?

Yes indeed, my table and seat selection has not improved since 2NL

Gutshot22 saiys how 10NL is "full of fish". I think the term fish is relative. To a 100NL grinder its gonna be packed with them in the samw way that 2NL and 5NL is to me now but at the times I am available to play, PS has some damn good, albeit nitty regs.

Its just a shame for me that I cannot play when there are 300,000 online and it feels like playing 5NL again!

Random observations:

* Balanced ranges at 10nl are mostly stupid. Your opponents are not going to exploit you having too high a fold to 3bet/4bet stat. Some reg types may notice it, but the only regs at 10nl are TAGfish (play incredibly basic abc poker, never adjust), the incredibly rare time when someone does adjust, they'll do it badly and give you more edge.

* Don't try to make your 3bet stat intentionally higher. It's way easier to exploit someone who's too loose than too tight in just about any situation.

* What ratio of light 3bets and value 3bets you should have depends on how much fold equity you've got, and obviously position. IP I believe it's fine (optimal?) to have way more light hands in your range than value (I usually default to a 2:1 ratio).

* High 3bet %'s aren't typical of the better 10nl players, they're nut peddling HUDbots.

This just means that they are waiting to 4-bet me with air and put me in difficult spots.

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You just recently moved up right? Everyone's got x-ray vision and can see your cards, they're developing awesome reads on you and 5bet bluffing you. Give it a while and they'll miraculously turn into fish once you get used to it. Stop paying attention to whether you're playing 10nl or 5nl, consider them all 5nl players, it's +EV.

imo, 4bet bluffing is very uncommon 100bb's deep in micro. I agree w Stu on not spending alot of time trying to increase 3bet hand ranges at micro.

fwiw - what are we trying to accomplish w 3bets against different opponents? c9 covers that in his excellent thread, but to repeat a couple of key points:

1. Some Villains will call 3bets oop w worse hands than we're 3betting. Yay!

2. Some Villains will fold to 3bets too frequently. Easy to steal pf, and if we get 4bet it's an easy fold. Yay!

3. Some Villains will fold to flop cbets in 3bet pots too frequently. Easy to play postflop - if we whiff and Villain starts betting, easy fold, otherwise easy postflop takedown. Yay!

As Stu points out, eventually you'll get played back at if someone figures out you're 3betting light. Some will 4bet light (again, I don't think this is very common at micro), some will start calling - hopefully w worse hands, but that depends on how lightly we're 3betting. Hand reading/board texture is going to be important postflop. Of course, once they start calling pf and calling flop cbets, it's time to stop 3betting too lightly.

But note that the above rationales are not completely holecard dependent. Against the right Villain/position/table dynamics, 3betting J3s can be a very good idea, or it can be the most idiotic play in the world.

Also, 2. and 3. are more evident in "tagfish" - TAG players who know what the "right" plays are - and most micro players aren't in this category (part of Stu's point I believe).

Deceitful_Frank said:

I would NEVER 3bet with 66. I see the other's point too that it seems I just want to 3-bet light because everone else is doing it but I can see that if everyone else IS doing it then they are obviously watching for it too!
This just means that they are waiting to 4-bet me with air and put me in difficult spots.

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First up, 3betting light means 3betting with hands such as 66. When you 3bet light you begin to polarise your range wherby you 3bet some extremely strong hands and some extremely weak hands. Polarising is good if opponents 4bet or fold (as they are supposed to) but they wont, they will start to call because they are bad players. Hence we dont do this.


Second up, noone at 10nl is 4bet bluffing with air. Honestly 99% of those 4bets are for value. Admittedly some of the hands seem weak, but not one of the players is 4bet bluffing, he is 4betting AJ/ATs because he truely believes its a powerhouse. He also 4bets 66 because he puts you on a bluff or AK (everyone at 10nl puts everyone on AK). Now if you have someone 4betting AJs and 66 for value against your 4.8% 3bet range why would you want to widen it?

Honestly they are this bad. There are no "good nitty regs" at 10nl. There was a guy only a couple of months ago preaching that 2nl had a few extremely good regs who were making thousands by staying with the fish. He believed it. However its just silly.

Everyone at these limits are beginners. Everyone who is any good moves up at the first possible chance. Everyone believes that the limit they are playing is tough, the reality is that once you can beat it you realise that it wasnt tough you were just bad; like everyone else!

Deceitful_Frank said:

I would NEVER 3bet with 66.

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Really?

NEVER?

I think your biggest problem is you're thinking in absolutes. If you want to 3-bet with 76s every time you're given the opportunity, you're probably wrong. What happens when you get 4-bet shoved?

The purpose of 3-betting light isn't to raise a statistic, it's to disguise the strength of your hand in certain situations.

For instance you decide to get risky and 3-bet with a hand like 67s, and the flop comes 458 rainbow and you bet, the guy with TT might look you up because he's got you figured for AKs. Or perhaps it builds the pot on hands where it's likely to hit big on a flop. For instance you're rockin 6c7c and you hit an open-ended combo draw. Well, stacking off here is going to either net you a 3-bet pot or get your stack in with a lot of outs to big hands.

At lower stakes though, the benefits of 3-betting light seem to drop. A lot of the players aren't on the level for it to be a profitable play.

I play at a $2/$3 NL live game and the majority of the players there, I wouldn't consider advanced enough to make this play profitable.

Of course, I'm not a big fan of 3-betting light, unless of course I'm new to the table and in a rush to get my stack up to 200 BBs so I can start hunting the deepstacks.

But as far as a polarized range you 3-bet light with, I don't like it. It's always situation dependant, and with this many hands in your range you're going to be pretty transparant and start getting 4-bet a lot more often, imo, and not by hands you're ahead of.

I would suggest a scientific experiment. The next 100 times you get raised by a villain with LAG stats, 3-bet him light one out of five times (in position). See how villain reacts. Afterward, try it on TAG player (in position). Then, try it on a LAG player out of position, then a TAG player out of position.

As with all experiments, you should keep a record.

If you do the same thing every time in poker, you're going to become too easy to beat once somebody cracks your game.

Hmmm. I am beginning to think that there is a lot more to 3betting that set value and light hands and putting your opponent on a range using his position, PFR and steal%!

I will at least try to keep things simple until I can understand it better.