Hi Carlos. I'm well, thanks for the reply and the feedback. As always it's really appreciatedHi there ventrolloquist, how are you today? Thank you a lot for sharing your doubts. Let me trynna help you.
I don't know which strategy is best for 6-Max games, although exist some consensus that limping too much isn't profitable in the long run. (either open-limping or limp-calling)
Many players use HUD profile, so it is easy to spot a player who is limping too much, specially out of position. There is a stat named Call Open, where we can adjust and put a pop-up to perceive the % of times players are limping/calling x position.
It seems that you are limping quite a bit, because 30% it's a huge number. Try to observe how much you are limping versus position. Example: Limp-call from MP, CO, BTN and SB.
When we limp too much we start to be exploited for value:
For instance, if you open-limp/limp-call 22-66 from UTG or MP, and a player in position raises your limp 5x are you inclined to defend your pocket pair in a high frequency? Maybe not.
When I see that a player limps and calls raise a lot(60% limp-calling versus raisor or more), I will put a 6x, 7, 10x raise preflop to put the player in very hard spot.
There was one hand where I see the limper use to call versus raisor 88%! So, I had AA and raised versus limper 18x preflop, and the player called with 66. Flop comes A6K I bet 2/3 pot and the player shoves all-in and I insta-called (sweet).
Let's assume you limp-trap AA, KK and AK. Nobody raises and the BB checks. Comes a flop 357 rainbow, BB checks and you bet 1/3 pot. BB now check-raises you to 3.3x, it is an easy call and we see a turn: another 3 in the turn and the player in the BB bets 3/4 pots, are you comfortable at all with your AA, KK and AK? Maybe not too.
What is the REAL problem of limping in Cash Tables?
A) By limping you are leaving the initiative behind, you are losing a fair chunk of equity preflop.
B) By limping we cannot represent anything postflop.
C) By limping we are just praying to hit your hand postflop or fold, because we have no initiave.
D) By limping, we open doors to create high variance spots, and huge reverse implied odds scenarios, where we are going to play with players that are hard to leave their equities postflops, multiway pot. We are not going to make a lot of value playing 3-handed pots, 4-handed pots, etc. By raising preflop we also avoid that many players enter into the pot, turning our equity and playability confuse. (hard)
A very decent LAG player will have stats of 28/24/3.5 at a 6-Max table (5000 hands sample) depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A TAG player will have stats of 20/16/3 depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A NIT player will have stats between 18/14/3 or 15/12/2 varying of how passive or aggresive the player is.
Sorry to say like this, but stats of 30/23 with AF under 3 or above 3.5, it is the fish...
A player who will be exploited to death at the tables. We don't want to open doors for our adversaries tear us apart.
If you have a good hand open the hand, so you will have initiative postflop. If you see a good hand but it is scared about being 3-betted or get too many callers, don't open! Simple and plain, don't open 100% of your combos or you are going to lose money.
You said that you limp-behind when some other player limped? It is the same of limping IMO.
Here are some topics on the matter: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/open-limping-it-so-bad-233455/
https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/a-preflop-question-is-limping-lame-27755.htm
https://upswingpoker.com/limps-poker-open-limpers-strategy/
I hope it helps you Nick! Have a nice day, and remember: life can be beautiful
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
.
Thanks for the articles. These are eye openers. Didn't realize limping behind was such a major leak.Hi there ventrolloquist, how are you today? Thank you a lot for sharing your doubts. Let me trynna help you.
I don't know which strategy is best for 6-Max games, although exist some consensus that limping too much isn't profitable in the long run. (either open-limping or limp-calling)
Many players use HUD profile, so it is easy to spot a player who is limping too much, specially out of position. There is a stat named Call Open, where we can adjust and put a pop-up to perceive the % of times players are limping/calling x position.
It seems that you are limping quite a bit, because 30% it's a huge number. Try to observe how much you are limping versus position. Example: Limp-call from MP, CO, BTN and SB.
When we limp too much we start to be exploited for value:
For instance, if you open-limp/limp-call 22-66 from UTG or MP, and a player in position raises your limp 5x are you inclined to defend your pocket pair in a high frequency? Maybe not.
When I see that a player limps and calls raise a lot(60% limp-calling versus raisor or more), I will put a 6x, 7, 10x raise preflop to put the player in very hard spot.
There was one hand where I see the limper use to call versus raisor 88%! So, I had AA and raised versus limper 18x preflop, and the player called with 66. Flop comes A6K I bet 2/3 pot and the player shoves all-in and I insta-called (sweet).
Let's assume you limp-trap AA, KK and AK. Nobody raises and the BB checks. Comes a flop 357 rainbow, BB checks and you bet 1/3 pot. BB now check-raises you to 3.3x, it is an easy call and we see a turn: another 3 in the turn and the player in the BB bets 3/4 pots, are you comfortable at all with your AA, KK and AK? Maybe not too.
What is the REAL problem of limping in Cash Tables?
A) By limping you are leaving the initiative behind, you are losing a fair chunk of equity preflop.
B) By limping we cannot represent anything postflop.
C) By limping we are just praying to hit your hand postflop or fold, because we have no initiave.
D) By limping, we open doors to create high variance spots, and huge reverse implied odds scenarios, where we are going to play with players that are hard to leave their equities postflops, multiway pot. We are not going to make a lot of value playing 3-handed pots, 4-handed pots, etc. By raising preflop we also avoid that many players enter into the pot, turning our equity and playability confuse. (hard)
A very decent LAG player will have stats of 28/24/3.5 at a 6-Max table (5000 hands sample) depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A TAG player will have stats of 20/16/3 depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A NIT player will have stats between 18/14/3 or 15/12/2 varying of how passive or aggresive the player is.
Sorry to say like this, but stats of 30/23 with AF under 3 or above 3.5, it is the fish...
A player who will be exploited to death at the tables. We don't want to open doors for our adversaries tear us apart.
If you have a good hand open the hand, so you will have initiative postflop. If you see a good hand but it is scared about being 3-betted or get too many callers, don't open! Simple and plain, don't open 100% of your combos or you are going to lose money.
You said that you limp-behind when some other player limped? It is the same of limping IMO.
Here are some topics on the matter: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/open-limping-it-so-bad-233455/
https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/a-preflop-question-is-limping-lame-27755.htm
https://upswingpoker.com/limps-poker-open-limpers-strategy/
I hope it helps you Nick! Have a nice day, and remember: life can be beautiful
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Thanks EetenorThank U 4 Posting.
Did you happen to notice the part of the pokernews article which spoke about loose vegas games? They recommended limping.
Why?
Fold frequency vs raise frequency of loose passive players.
So when we consider whether we should limp or not online that is what we should know about our player pool. Do they play like the live game or do they play like the online games described in the data in the article?
Table by table changes in villain behavior is not uncommon online.
Hope this helps
. Do you have the link to the article by any chance please? Also, do you mean open limping or limping behind? I see a lot of regs in low stakes tournaments open limp sometimes, and even some at NL10.
Thanks for the detailed advice, much appreciated EetenorThank U 4 Responding.
You are in a great situation as described above. You have to love it when villains only play back at you with their best hands.
So your first adjustment to their limp calling frequency is perfect. Just remember to take notes on who will fold and not just start playing all players equally.
For instance: if you have 2 players one will fold the other will not fold to a raise, you always want to isolate the caller so you can play heads up vs 1 weak player. Dependent on your hand range.
Your over limping frequency should be high vs weak post flop players. If your post flop play is superior. Many players however over limp the wrong hands. Do not start over limping hands that are easily dominated. A7 off K9 off. Unless of course your villains fold a high percentage post flop. The reason for over limping is the big money is made post flop and if we are better than our villains we want to get post flop as much as we can as cheaply as we can. With the right range of hands.
I am confused by this statement could you clarify.
"As for limpers limping high broadway cards, the way I see it if the flop hits my implied odds hands and they call my shove with an overpair or broadway pair then I'm golden. I'm not sure that's something I should be worried about?"
Below is an example of how broadway cards are dangerous for some of our limps.
Example villain 1 limps AJoff villain 2 limps KdQd we limp J9off in position
Flop J d10d 8c
As you can see from that combination of hands we are near dead to win yet it appears we have good equity. J9 off has 9% equity
So when villains are limping good broadway hands over limping any weak paint hands K5 suited Q9 off etc becomes very dangerous for our equity return.
Hope this helps
.
It's like you read my mind. I would like to add. Limp can be used if there are very aggressive players after you. I use the limp-reraise option with strong QQ or AA hands.
