Using the rules to your advantage !!!

We were playing a $50 freezout earlier tonight and it was down to the heads up stage.

Both stack were very even, i went all in from the SB, with JJ. Now here is where it went interesting. The guy in the BB flips over AA in the center of the table without announcing anything. Now i start laughing, and say thanks for folding that, and take the chips, now everyone else is laughing as well, and agreed that he actually had folded.

What do you think, i feel that this was correct as he never announced CALL !!!!!!!!!!!

Excellllllent! Great way to save your arse on a technicality. Go Girl. I'll bet he never forgets to announce again!

i remember Doyle B saying that if he's faced with a tough call when he has AA, he will flip it upwards on the table to spark some kind of reaction to the other player to get a tell.
Is it illegal to flip em or not?

Not illegal to flip them, but to flip them in the middle of the table is. Its essentially a fold, i was there for this, very funny has to be said.

So did ya win? I probably would have cut the guy a break and then regretted it later

Threesixes said:

So did ya win? I probably would have cut the guy a break and then regretted it later

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Yeah right, the West Coast Assasin cutting someone a break instead of their throat. As to the question at hand, if I am playing a $50 freezeout the rules have to be enforced, totally agree KK.

He probably flipped them over to get a read on you. But then again, why try to get a read on someone when you have the best starting hand preflop? Or for that matter, why would he fold?!!!

2 things here.
In a tournament, it is NOT a fold if they flipped face up. (only if they touch the muck or other cards)
#2 Did you really deserve to win that hand? No. You're shooting angles to cover your poor play.

Fish is a glorious beacon of light.

Not a fold.

If he'd turned TT face up in front of him I wonder if you'd have been so quick to claim the chips?

I'd be upset, but my honor would get the best of me and let him call.

Thanks for the clarification on flipping cards up, don't play live so didn't know. What the f---- do deserving to win have to do with poker?

Fish said:

2 things here.
In a tournament, it is NOT a fold if they flipped face up. (only if they touch the muck or other cards)
#2 Did you really deserve to win that hand? No. You're shooting angles to cover your poor play.

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To Fish

YES he flipped his cards into the center of the table where the other cards had been mucked.

2) Yes I did deserve to win that hand, why not? How dear you come on here and accuse me of cheating to cover up bad play. What bad play did I do? I pushed all in heads up with JJ. Where’s the poor play in that... Why do think I should have folded JJ or something.
You are very quick to come on to this thread and fire around accusations when obviously you don’t know what you are talking about. With your two sentence remarks. Now that’s what I call poor.


In our games in our local pub being the only girl filled with a room full male egos I will bring in every technicality to the game to let them know I aint no fool. If I sat back and said nothing they will look at me as a soft touch.

Any way all the players at the table including the guy with AA completely agreed with me.

So Fish I advise you to get your facts right before you go around accusing people of all sorts.


And to Dorkus,

Is this all you could come up with

Fish said:

2 things here.
In a tournament, it is NOT a fold if they flipped face up. (only if they touch the muck or other cards)
#2 Did you really deserve to win that hand? No. You're shooting angles to cover your poor play.

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At least think about what you are typing when you reply. Going all in in the SB with JJ is a good play, it could even be contrued as an overplay but what the hell.

My understanding is that you can flip your card to get a reaction ONLY if there are no other plays to be made in the hand i.e. all the players are all in, in which case you would only do this to get a reaction on whether or not your hand is in front and whether to call or not

But in this case, you have no advantage by doing this with AA. It sounds like the guy made a mistake and if you throw your cards in the muck? Its gotta be construed as a fold

Why would he do that? Probably wasnt concentrating or he got so excited by his hand he just lost it for a few seconds

it -was- a bad play if it was the first action of the hand (eg you raise and he reraises and then you went all in, instead of just plain all in)

KillerKat said:

Both stack were very even, i went all in from the SB, with JJ.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Plain all-in in anyones language, apart from yours maybe

What goes around comes around. I would have been a better sport. I will lay odds folks are more willing to shoot angles at you now moving forward.
I hope when it comes around it is for a similarly small buy in.

Deep inside you know he had zero intention of folding. And, where the "muck" is on the table is argued about all the time.
So technically you may have been right, on this occassion, but I doubt it was a good longterm play.

Good luck all,

Bill
Im traveling so i apologize for not being around much, and then when I am around only making these short little quips. be back soon

KillerKat said:

And to Dorkus,

Is this all you could come up with

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From Robert's Rules of Poker...

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

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As I said, not a fold, and not really "using the rules to your advantage" either.

Chris,

Next time you are playing a live game, try flipping your cards up into the middle of the muck pile, without announcing your intention. And see how far youll get.

Just as an experiment of course.

KillerKat said:

into the middle of the muck pile

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This was unclear previously (I believe others were unaware of this too, looking at some of the posts).

Of course, once the cards hit the muck they are dead.

I still agree with Bill to an extent though.

Bill_Hollorian said:

What goes around comes around. I would have been a better sport. I will lay odds folks are more willing to shoot angles at you now moving forward.
I hope when it comes around it is for a similarly small buy in.

Deep inside you know he had zero intention of folding. And, where the "muck" is on the table is argued about all the time.
So technically you may have been right, on this occassion, but I doubt it was a good longterm play.

Good luck all,
Bill
Im traveling so i apologize for not being around much, and then when I am around only making these short little quips. be back soon

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Well Bill,

To be totally honest this wasnt our regular game (play here about once a month) , these guys had been pickly with the rules all evening, folding you hand for example if you wernt at your seat, even if you were 3 steps away from re-joining your seat. If was a bit of a sticky game, the muck pile was glaringly obvious with a big box marked "dis-cards" marking out the muck pile. No one batted an eyelid at the ruleing that his hand was folded. At our regular table in fairness id let him play it, but not here, ever.

If in-fact your opponent turned over his cards in the middle of the table and touched any mucked cards without announcing his intentions or moving chips then the hand is considered mucked.
You acted within the rules and it seems everybody else present including the mis-fortunate soul ( lol ) were in agreement.
Anything you may wish to do after the game has ended to cheer up your opponent is entirely your business.
It appears to be a regular game, so everybody their knows the score.


zinzan1000

KillerKat said:

So Fish I advise you to get your facts right before you go around accusing people of all sorts.

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In your original post, you did NOT mention if they actually HIT the muck or not. I believe it is safe to say they did not.
Therefore you shot an angle.

Believe what you will.

excuse me, i meant the first move all-in would be a mistake. a raise, then reraise from him, then you all in could be justified.

Hmmmmm, what a muddled mess. Well, the cards hitting the muck pile is technically a fold, and, yes, you would be justified in that case. Maybe I'm too soft, because I'd let him play his hand, after telling him his mistake. Question though; was he a newbie or a seasoned player? That answer makes a HUGE difference (in my mind anyway).