Lots of great posts here folks, and thank you. To respond to just a few of them:
Originally Posted by IPlay
Didn't hit the flop? AA is a made hand and does not need to hit the flop.
IPlay, maybe I have a talent of attracting extremely lucky players, but I see high PPs killed sooooooooooooooo often the same way buddy's As did, with 2 pair or someone having a garbage brother of a board pair for a set, etc. Many times you'll win with those pairs, but so often you wont against players like this. Remember one of the rules (and I know I don't need to tell you this, but just to make my point); the more cards your opponent sees, the better chance he has to beat you.
I don't get where you got this but this is a great example of why you can value bet very thin against players like this, but know WHY you are betting. If you have 1010 on a k 9 3 rainbow flop and you cbet, you are cbetting for value against this guy and not a bluff because he will call so weak. When you cbet this flop against someone that folds anything but top pair, you are pretty much bluffing and not value betting since you are never getting called by worse.
On the 1010 example (the hand I played) you're 100% right. I'll normally C-Bet whether I hit the flop or not. If the player calls, I'll fall back, regroup and go to plan B. Plan B can change depending on whether the player is tight / nitty or if he's a high VPIP. However, where I got the bolded statement you're referring to above is with the AA hand I posted. Yes, maybe his bets were out of whack and he played it incorrectly, but still, we've all seen players who will chase bottom pair to the end, and those are the kind that drive us nuts.
Originally Posted by akaRobbo
Most of the time you have to give respect to fishes' raises. That guy played AA horribly, if he gets his bet sizing correct and villain doesn't hit a lucky 2 pair, he gets 3 streets of huge value from J4 offsuit... who is happier in the long run?
Your bolded statement is what throws the wrench into the gears. Look at it this way with the AA hand, he (the guy with As) has 2 cards to improve his hand, so after the flop his odds of improving are pretty piss poor. However, the idiot who is calling with a flopped bottom pair has 5 cards to improve his hand and he probably thinks this is great because he makes it once in a while and he thinks he's a friggin' pro. His odds are a little better, but still pretty pathetic. Yes, in the long run he's losing and you're winning, but when you combine these odds with the number of times you fold on the Turn or River because of a big bluff, it's getting pretty hard to take.
Generally don't cbet if you missed, fire out once if you know the fish folds if they completely whiffed the flop, as they'll miss 70% of the time. When you do hit, TPGK is going to be beating them on the flop, take them to value town and fold to any raises. Don't slow up if they snap call you down, or overcards come either, please fold to their raises, they won't be bluffing trust me.
I'm at the point now where if the villain has a high VPIP or if I know he plays junk a lot, I cut back on C-Bets big time, both in frequency and size
As for they won't be bluffing, I have numerous instances that make me tend to disagree, one that just happened this afternoon is posted below.
Now, he min-raised pre which tells
me he might have a low pocket pair, Ax, maybe suited connectors or 2 broadway cards. (Note I have 0 info on this player.) I took a stab at a C-Bet with 1 overcard and a possible FD on the board, he called. OK, maybe he has Qx, maybe suited diamonds, maybe a 7 or a 2. Turn gives me my set, but it's a diamond and shoves. He COULD have a flush, he might have made 2 pair. I called figuring my odds are OK (and maybe I'm right out to lunch there).
I'm willingly open to criticism here, but my thoughts were he has (I think) something like an 8% chance of having a flush there, and my set is made. There are 14 cards that would give me a full house or better on the River if he did make his flush, so I think my odds are worth the risk of calling him. Thoughts, comments or suggestions?
PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4 (http://www.pokertracker.com)
UTG: 137.2 BB (VPIP: 18.52, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG+1: 80 BB
MP: 119.8 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
Hero (MP+1): 100 BB
CO: 106.6 BB (VPIP: 16.49, PFR: 11.70, 3Bet Preflop: 6.00, Hands: 577)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.71, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 22.22, Hands: 25)
BB: 194.6 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 12.99, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 82)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, UTG+1
posts penalty blind 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 2.4 BB) Hero
, UTG+1 raises to 2 BB
, MP calls 2 BB, Hero
calls 2 BB, fold
, BB calls 1 BB
Flop: (8.4 BB, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1
checks, MP checks, Hero bets 8 BB
calls 8 BB, fold
Turn: (24.4 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets 70 BB and is all-in
calls 70 BB
River: (164.4 BB, 2 players)
(One Pair, Sevens) (Pre 33%, Flop 24%, Turn 0%)
(Three of a Kind, Eights) (Pre 67%, Flop 76%, Turn 100%)
wins 157.6 BB
Originally Posted by Arjonius
All fish are not the same. This also applies to high vpips. So, there isn't a single optimal way to play them all.
Agreed there's no single RIGHT way to play all players. I remember reading somewhere many times one of the marks of a great poker player is the ability to adjust to different styles of play, and I really believe that.
I guess this thread has gotten a little off track, but it's a great discussion all the same.
Besides, it's my thread and I'll do what I want!!!!
Time for another Espresso!