Two pairs and reading player hands/ranges

quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
One of the trouble situations I'm finding myself in a lot at 6 max cash games is having two pair hands, getting it in on flop or turn only to see my two pair crushed by a flopped set or a higher two pair.

Sometimes I'll flop two pair, other times I'll flop a solid pair and turn two pair only to see I've either been beat by higher two pair or a set.

There's a lot of manic play at 6max, especially at stakes between 2NL and 50NL, so to me a re-raise or shove can be anything from a draw or bottom pair (from what I'm seeing) to sets or top two pair.

I've improved my game a lot over the years but getting away from two pair (esp on dry boards) continues to be one of my biggest causes of lost big pots,

How do you get a better read on these spots to not get stacked with two pair or how do you change your betting to better control the pot size in these spots?
 
mt2lhd

mt2lhd

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 27, 2020
Total posts
120
Awards
1
Chips
0
I had same problem for so long, Many times that i got two pair I faced better hand and lost, currently i'm just trying to find weakness in opponent hand and get value on river otherwise i don't bet big or if someone went all-in i probably fold
 
quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
I had same problem for so long, Many times that i got two pair I faced better hand and lost, currently i'm just trying to find weakness in opponent hand and get value on river otherwise i don't bet big or if someone went all-in i probably fold


True it seems like a common problem.

Although I'm referring more to flop or turn all ins and seeing we're dominated (i.e I flop top two pair, get it in, they have a set or I turn two pair, get it in , see they had flopped higher two pair) and less on the river where it seems easier to get away from two pair on a scary river with alot of potential hands that "got there" against us (i.e. flushes, straights, full houses).
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Total posts
2,901
Awards
4
Chips
394
In live poker, I think I have a natural knack for hand reading and the psychology side of poker - I can't really help much there because I just seem to know "intuitively" sometimes and I don't know if this is teachable after a certain point.

Other than that (like online where physical tells are not possible), I think hand reading comes down to betting patterns and position a lot more. You are right, 2 pair hands are really good hands most of the time, but how do we know when they have us beat? Betting patterns and position can help us figure out (some of the time) when we need to fold. For example: I tend to give more credit to tighter players raising in earlier positions than someone in say the Cutoff seat. Math-wise, EVERYONE has the same chance of being dealt a premium hand (like AA for instance), but someone raising in earlier position is more likely to continue with only stronger holdings.

Maybe AA would be played by anyone in any position, but what about a lesser hand that is still playable like 5-5? If you are on the Button looking down at a pocket pair of 5, then you are typically seeing a Flop at least. A reasonable UTG position player is likely folding this hand preflop - especially to a raise.

Figuring out when they have your 2 pair beat (or any hand for that matter) is about constantly narrowing down their likely range of holdings all the way to showdown or the point where you fold.

It is mainly about practice and experience, but simply noticing what actions others took from what position helped me a lot with what you are talking about.
 
K

Kaleiduo

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Total posts
30
Chips
0
One of the trouble situations I'm finding myself in a lot at 6 max cash games is having two pair hands, getting it in on flop or turn only to see my two pair crushed by a flopped set or a higher two pair.

Sometimes I'll flop two pair, other times I'll flop a solid pair and turn two pair only to see I've either been beat by higher two pair or a set.

There's a lot of manic play at 6max, especially at stakes between 2NL and 50NL, so to me a re-raise or shove can be anything from a draw or bottom pair (from what I'm seeing) to sets or top two pair.

I've improved my game a lot over the years but getting away from two pair (esp on dry boards) continues to be one of my biggest causes of lost big pots,

How do you get a better read on these spots to not get stacked with two pair or how do you change your betting to better control the pot size in these spots?
How are you betting your flopped two pairs? What's the action like pre-flop? What's your read on villain? At the micros anyway, you'll want to check raise OOP and fast play pot raise IP, just get it in good. I don't know the exact odds but two pair V set is quite rare so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could try protecting your stack somewhat by doing a 2.2x re-raise and evaluate from there, you might be able to get more information that way if you think your two pair is threatened. This protects against what you are worried about, as a push means worse hands fold while better hands call.

Getting beat by better two pairs stinks, but you should check first off how often it happens, and really pay attention to flop texture. Aces can be danger cards as they will counterfeit almost any two pair unless you have an ace and your lower pair is better. Low two pairs are also usually in bad shape too, as they can be easily counterfeited if the board pairs.

It sucks when you get beat by villain's top range, but just remember that you'll encounter their lower range more often.
 
Last edited:
G

GamingOn

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Total posts
27
Chips
0
Two pair is a good place to be in any case especially when the other player has a high card and a trash card so they think they will win but that is not the case.
 
Igor Popadyk

Igor Popadyk

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
May 7, 2015
Total posts
1,120
Awards
7
Chips
105
a strange question from a regular player! maybe the selective memory is just triggered, you yourself have not won in situations on the contrary, when you win against two pairs?
 
B

Berzerker2x

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 19, 2020
Total posts
10
Chips
0
2 pair...

2 pair is awesome if you boat the turn!
 
J

johnoman

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2020
Total posts
89
Chips
0
One of the trouble situations I'm finding myself in a lot at 6 max cash games is having two pair hands, getting it in on flop or turn only to see my two pair crushed by a flopped set or a higher two pair.

Sometimes I'll flop two pair, other times I'll flop a solid pair and turn two pair only to see I've either been beat by higher two pair or a set.

There's a lot of manic play at 6max, especially at stakes between 2NL and 50NL, so to me a re-raise or shove can be anything from a draw or bottom pair (from what I'm seeing) to sets or top two pair.

I've improved my game a lot over the years but getting away from two pair (esp on dry boards) continues to be one of my biggest causes of lost big pots,

How do you get a better read on these spots to not get stacked with two pair or how do you change your betting to better control the pot size in these spots?


I'm by no means an expert and I myself am still getting to grips with the art of hand reading.
To help answer your question, in spots such as yours, I find looking at betting patterns to most useful.

Has villain checked both flop and turn and then fired a large pot/overbet on the river? If so, this usually indicates a very good made hand on the river, or, an outright bluff. This made hand could be two pair or better. In these spots, do you have a good top pair? Is your opponent a calling station? If so, I would maybe suggest calling here with some decent equity against such an opponent playing a very wide range.

It comes down a lot to how your opponent has played previously and what their betting lines says about them.

I hope this is of some use to you...again, I am by no means a veteran player and I am myself learning the ropes of many different concepts of poker. So I am sure other more experienced player will have a much better insight into this situation than me.
 
quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
I had same problem for so long, Many times that i got two pair I faced better hand and lost, currently i'm just trying to find weakness in opponent hand and get value on river otherwise i don't bet big or if someone went all-in i probably fold

How are you betting your flopped two pairs? What's the action like pre-flop? What's your read on villain? At the micros anyway, you'll want to check raise OOP and fast play pot raise IP, just get it in good. I don't know the exact odds but two pair V set is quite rare so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could try protecting your stack somewhat by doing a 2.2x re-raise and evaluate from there, you might be able to get more information that way if you think your two pair is threatened. This protects against what you are worried about, as a push means worse hands fold while better hands call.

Getting beat by better two pairs stinks, but you should check first off how often it happens, and really pay attention to flop texture. Aces can be danger cards as they will counterfeit almost any two pair unless you have an ace and your lower pair is better. Low two pairs are also usually in bad shape too, as they can be easily counterfeited if the board pairs.

It sucks when you get beat by villain's top range, but just remember that you'll encounter their lower range more often.


I'm by no means an expert and I myself am still getting to grips with the art of hand reading.
To help answer your question, in spots such as yours, I find looking at betting patterns to most useful.

Has villain checked both flop and turn and then fired a large pot/overbet on the river? If so, this usually indicates a very good made hand on the river, or, an outright bluff. This made hand could be two pair or better. In these spots, do you have a good top pair? Is your opponent a calling station? If so, I would maybe suggest calling here with some decent equity against such an opponent playing a very wide range.

It comes down a lot to how your opponent has played previously and what their betting lines says about them.

I hope this is of some use to you...again, I am by no means a veteran player and I am myself learning the ropes of many different concepts of poker. So I am sure other more experienced player will have a much better insight into this situation than me.

I'm usually the one betting when I flop a strong 2 pair or turn a strong 2 pair. Checking and expecting them to bet at the micros is insanity; they'll just take their free card. I'm usually the aggressor....an example might be entering a pot with AJ on button, I raise, they flat call, flop brings AJ8 rainbow, I'll bet they call, turn is a K, I bet they call, river is a blank like 2 , I bet , they raise, I call...they have AK? But didn't 3 or 4 bet it pre, don't raise on flop or turn, just makes little sense.

Although even worse is when you flop two pair, the board is like AK6, you have AK, THEY raise IP pre, you 3 bet them, they call, flop you bet pot, they call, turn 8, you bet, they shove, you call...they have 88?!

Or the counterfeits where you have an ok two pair, they flop a pair....turn and river pairs, and they get 2 pair because of board. Fortunately those tend to be scary boards and thus smaller pots but still.

Two pair loses way more than people think.
 
K

Kaleiduo

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Total posts
30
Chips
0
I'm usually the one betting when I flop a strong 2 pair or turn a strong 2 pair. Checking and expecting them to bet at the micros is insanity; they'll just take their free card. I'm usually the aggressor....an example might be entering a pot with AJ on button, I raise, they flat call, flop brings AJ8 rainbow, I'll bet they call, turn is a K, I bet they call, river is a blank like 2 , I bet , they raise, I call...they have AK? But didn't 3 or 4 bet it pre, don't raise on flop or turn, just makes little sense.

Although even worse is when you flop two pair, the board is like AK6, you have AK, THEY raise IP pre, you 3 bet them, they call, flop you bet pot, they call, turn 8, you bet, they shove, you call...they have 88?!

Or the counterfeits where you have an ok two pair, they flop a pair....turn and river pairs, and they get 2 pair because of board. Fortunately those tend to be scary boards and thus smaller pots but still.

Two pair loses way more than people think.

Just looking at my stats, two pairs do ok EXCEPT on paired boards. Those are big losers for me at showdown. The only time paired boards show up as winners is if I have an overpair. You should really take a look at your stats just to make sure you aren't driving yourself crazy! You want to be betting for value when you get two pairs, in general. The money though doesn't really start rolling until you start hitting trips/sets. That's when you start making the real money at showdown.
 
S

sera121

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Total posts
6
Chips
0
In my opinion, very often people with 2 pair on their hands will lose if it is clear that the flop comes out a combination that can be regarded as a straight.Still very often lately, he lost to pokerstars, he lost going to all-in with a high pair in his hands. When an opponent goes with such a de pair a little later, he answers, why is this happening?
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top