Tough Spots! KK and QQ folded!

So yeah just had to deal with these two hands, one after the other. What are you thoughts?

full tilt poker Game #33922181846: Table Over (6 max) - NL Hold'em - $0.05/$0.10 - 18:10:09 ET - 2014/02/18
Seat 1: eduksa ($4.93)
Seat 2: Ephemeron ($15.13)
Seat 3: em_985 ($10.62)
Seat 4: heyhaveaniceday ($10.93)
Seat 5: akaRobbo ($10.42)
Seat 6: Trokild ($16.61)
heyhaveaniceday posts the small blind of $0.05
akaRobbo posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to akaRobbo [Kd Kh]
Trokild has 15 seconds left to act
Trokild folds
eduksa folds
Ephemeron folds
em_985 has 15 seconds left to act
em_985 raises to $0.30
Trokild is sitting out
heyhaveaniceday has 15 seconds left to act
heyhaveaniceday folds
akaRobbo raises to $0.95
em_985 has 15 seconds left to act
em_985 raises to $2.30
akaRobbo has 15 seconds left to act
akaRobbo calls $1.35
*** FLOP *** [Jc 3d Qh] (Total Pot: $4.65, 2 Players)
akaRobbo checks
em_985 has 15 seconds left to act
em_985 bets $2.79
akaRobbo has 15 seconds left to act
akaRobbo has requested TIME
akaRobbo: AA?
akaRobbo: folding KK
akaRobbo has timed out
akaRobbo folds
akaRobbo adds $1.88
akaRobbo is sitting out
Uncalled bet of $2.79 returned to em_985
akaRobbo has returned
em_985 mucks
em_985 wins the pot ($4.42)

QQ hand:

Full Tilt poker game #33922192223: Table Huck (6 max) - NL Hold'em - $0.05/$0.10 - 18:12:53 ET - 2014/02/18
Seat 1: eduksa ($9.49)
Seat 2: ProfMagoo ($5.22)
Seat 3: fabfoe ($10)
Seat 4: akaRobbo ($10.46)
Seat 5: Traininvain12 ($15.55)
Seat 6: ColdSeat999 ($17.70)
fabfoe posts the small blind of $0.05
akaRobbo posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to akaRobbo [Qs Qc]
Traininvain12 has 15 seconds left to act
Traininvain12 raises to $0.30
ColdSeat999 folds
eduksa folds
ProfMagoo raises to $0.50
fabfoe folds
fabfoe adds $0.05
akaRobbo calls $0.40
Traininvain12 calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [9d 3h Ts] (Total Pot: $1.55, 3 Players)
akaRobbo checks
Traininvain12 checks
ProfMagoo checks
*** TURN *** [9d 3h Ts] [2c] (Total Pot: $1.55, 3 Players)
akaRobbo bets $1
Traininvain12 folds
ProfMagoo calls $1
*** RIVER *** [9d 3h Ts 2c] [Ac] (Total Pot: $3.55, 2 Players)
akaRobbo has 15 seconds left to act
akaRobbo checks
ProfMagoo bets $3.72, and is all in
akaRobbo folds
akaRobbo adds $1.04
Uncalled bet of $3.72 returned to ProfMagoo
ProfMagoo mucks
ProfMagoo wins the pot ($3.38)

The QQ hand was made easier with the A on the river. When I got called for $1 on the turn I just felt beat, was actually thinking about folding even if an ace didnt river. Both pretty tough though, what would you have done? I was two-tabling and these were literally consecutive hands

Why not just shove the Kings pre? And raise the 3bet with QQ.. a fish 3bets it 2bb more.. calling means you're gonna be playing it 3way or more unless someone helps you out by 4betting it for you. You get 2:1 on the river in QQ hand, it isn't an easy fold. Depends on what ya know about ProfMagoo

Interesting hand, I would have shoved my KK preflop too

Both villains were TAGs, not fish

akaRobbo said:

Both villains were TAGs, not fish

Click to expand...

Seat 1: eduksa ($9.49)
Seat 2: ProfMagoo ($5.22)
Seat 3: fabfoe ($10)
Seat 4: akaRobbo ($10.46)
Seat 5: Traininvain12 ($15.55)
Seat 6: ColdSeat999 ($17.70)

Villain is confirmed fish.

I don't mind the pre-flop call w/ KK, but then shove the flop. Even at 10nl, someone's open button and 4-betting range is going to be more than AK/KK+. I mean if you put him on JJ+/AQ+ only you are still going to have over 50% equity.

QQ hands ISO the fish who min 3-bet. As played, what hand do you put him on that he's checking that flop, then just calling the turn and shoving the river with? I mean he could have some Ax flush draws, but surely much more in his range than that. Think that is a call.

John A said:

I don't mind the pre-flop call w/ KK, but then shove the flop. Even at 10nl, someone's open button and 4-betting range is going to be more than AK/KK+.

Click to expand...

Exactly... QQ and JJ have me crushed? The only hands im ahead of OTF are AK or AQ. Is he really 4-betting me with AK or AQ pre? Then he bets $2.79 into $4.65. We can pretty much rule out AQ because of the 4-bet pre, my table image was tight as hell too. Say he has AK, why would he c-bet when he knows ive got him dominated with AA KK QQQ or JJJ, knows ill come right over the top if he bets that much. Its a value bet with AA IMO.

Blobweird123 said:

Seat 1: eduksa ($9.49)
Seat 2: ProfMagoo ($5.22)
Seat 3: fabfoe ($10)
Seat 4: akaRobbo ($10.46)
Seat 5: Traininvain12 ($15.55)
Seat 6: ColdSeat999 ($17.70)

Villain is confirmed fish.

Click to expand...

True , he made his trusty Ace rag on the river then haha

So many tough decisions in poker, picking the right spot to push with KK is just something you have to make, sometime you slow play them, reading a table and you opponents is necessary skill needed in poker.

Are you serious? WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU FOLDING KK THERE.

You literally put him on 1 hand? And that just so happens to be the #1 best hand preflop?

3 unders to your pocket pair come, and you think he has the only overpair to you?

What the hell, man?

akaRobbo said:

Exactly... QQ and JJ have me crushed? The only hands im ahead of OTF are AK or AQ. Is he really 4-betting me with AK or AQ pre? Then he bets $2.79 into $4.65. We can pretty much rule out AQ because of the 4-bet pre, my table image was tight as hell too. Say he has AK, why would he c-bet when he knows ive got him dominated with AA KK QQQ or JJJ, knows ill come right over the top if he bets that much. Its a value bet with AA IMO.

Click to expand...

When putting your opponents on ranges you need to be realistic and not just think about worst-case scenarios. If your table image was tight as hell, you should include some air in his range because he has to know he can knock you off hands. I feel mean saying this but you have to be the easiest guy in the world to knock off a hand. You were thinking of folding the TURN?!?!

With QQ on a [9d 3h Ts 2c] board? AAAAGH

Stevepdx said:

Are you serious? WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU FOLDING KK THERE.

You literally put him on 1 hand? And that just so happens to be the #1 best hand preflop?

3 unders to your pocket pair come, and you think he has the only overpair to you?

What the hell, man?

Click to expand...

Not sure if you're trolling or just a terrible player.

I think he has the only overpair? No. Read my previous message, and look at the flop.

Tbh I was expecting messages like this from players who can't ever fold Kings.

akaRobbo said:

Not sure if you're trolling or just a terrible player.

I think he has the only overpair? No. Read my previous message, and look at the flop.

Tbh I was expecting messages like this from players who can't ever fold Kings.

Click to expand...

[Jc 3d Qh]


I think you love making folds like this, and I think it's a leak.

Stevepdx said:

When putting your opponents on ranges you need to be realistic and not just think about worst-case scenarios. If your table image was tight as hell, you should include some air in his range because he has to know he can knock you off hands. I feel mean saying this but you have to be the easiest guy in the world to knock off a hand. You were thinking of folding the TURN?!?!

With QQ on a [9d 3h Ts 2c] board? AAAAGH

Click to expand...

So you completely avoid the KK hand I was explaining and move onto talking about the other hand? OK.

"You were thinking of folding the TURN?!?!" No. Read what I said. I said I felt beat on the Turn after he called. I bet the Turn so what are you on about?

He has 3-bet pre-flop so 99 or TT is possible, he actually checks the flop too which is a common move when flopping a set. Who checks TPTK or K10 here?? He then calls a pot size turn bet from me. The only hand he could very likely have is JJ which im ahead of, anything else is unlikely for him to have or has me beat.

When the A comes on the river and he shoves it pretty obvious QQ is beat in the end anyway.

Stevepdx said:

[Jc 3d Qh]


I think you love making folds like this, and I think it's a leak.

Click to expand...

So this TAG has 4-bet me, with my tight image, with: AK, AQ or worse has he? Then bets over half the pot on the flop?

Ok so KK hand, ugh. First off, i'm shoving pre. But ok, so you flat. But now that he bets, which he should and almost always will, you decide to now say he has AA and fold? If that is your standard line of thinking then why not just fold pre because at that point you seem to just be set mining with your kings which is lolbad. Shove pre or shove flop, but shove somewhere.

QQ hand, I think he has a lot of AJ+ here so I don't mind the fold. I'm probably just 4b iso'ing the fish pre though.

First hand: His perceived range should include any hands you might want to get it in with. That's TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ. There's also a worthwhile "loose hand" consideration which is lower pocket pairs, and A Js, A 10s.

Now - the flop.

Flop comes out J, 3, Q, rainbow. Checking to the raiser is fine - but you have to expect that he is going to lead out. There's literally nothing he would 4-bet with pre-flop that shouldn't be leading out here. Nothing. So your question should not include the word "fold" - it should include the words "call" and "raise". As in, "should I call or should I raise".

But let's look at the scenarios.

TT - he's crushed.
JJ - you're crushed.
QQ - you're crushed.
KK - chop
AA - you're crushed.
AK - he's crushed.
AQ - he's crushed.
Loose Hand - he's crushed.

The only thing he might check behind is 10s. But all in all, at the very least you have about a 50/50 shot of being ahead here against a random player.

My feeling would be to either do a hearty check raise there and hope for a crushed hand with a loose call. OR, to try to play pot control. I would probably be going for the former because I can't think of any turn card that you can easily slow the villain down with. If you check, he's betting half pot again, if you bet he's probably going to shove.

Now if you do check raise that flop - you may have to really think things through if he comes over the top. That's when it really helps to understand the player as much as possible. Is this the guy who's going to go all the way with AQ? Or would he lay AQ down to a substantial check raise here? At least you'll have more information to go on.