Total Game Theory

I read this topic in a relatively advanced poker book and thought it was extremely interesting. Its basically the idea of intentionally making a -EV move now in an effort to create +EV opportunities in the future.

I won't steal the exact example from the book, but it was something to the effect of getting raised in the BB by the button and you 3bet a medium to smallish pocket pair and get 4 bet by the button, normally this is a fold, but if there was a total fish directly to your right sitting 200+BB deep, you might 5 bet shove and hope to get a flip because even if you are behind, the benefits of possibly sitting 200BB deep with a fish on your right far outways the -EV of the current hand. Also, I think the idea is that getting 100BBs all in preflop with a small pair early in a session will get you more action later which is more +EV.

Not necessarily looking for anything specific to this example, just more curious if anyone is applying any concepts like this to their game or is it a complete waste of time at lower stakes given that most people probably aren't taking notice of anything you are doing anyway. Obviously this is a much higher variance style of play that you need to be careful to apply correctly or things could get ugly fast.

DEdwardsNJ said:

a complete waste of time at lower stakes given that most people probably aren't taking notice of anything you are doing anyway.

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This

Certinaly beneficial for higher players, especially for someone like Ivey as he knows how to exploit excellently but pointless for probably 100NL downwards.

While I won't go as far as saying it's a complete waste of time, it's really only of value against a relatively small proportion of opponents, those who (a) see beyond their own cards enough to form an image of how you play, and who (b) will adapt in ways you can then exploit.

My understanding of the post was that the -ev play had nothing to do with "creating an image" and more to do with taking chances early on with the hopes of building a big stack to exploit a perfectly positioned fish who also has a big stack... The idea has merit. One of those "little things" that I think thinking players can really take advantage of.

NoOneYouKnow said:

My understanding of the post was that the -ev play had nothing to do with "creating an image" and more to do with taking chances early on with the hopes of building a big stack to exploit a perfectly positioned fish who also has a big stack... The idea has merit. One of those "little things" that I think thinking players can really take advantage of.

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Yeah, I threw in the stuff about the image because I thought that could be an added bonus of making the play, but the actual example as described was specific that you could make a slightly -EV play knowing that you gain back more EV by possibly sitting 200 BBs deep with a fish. Its a stretch, but I was just curious if anyone incorporated this kind of thinking into their games or maybe had some other examples of outside the box thinking like this

I think fancy play and spew like that is all just spew. Hardly anyone notices anything you do. Even fewer take notes. And even fewer will adjust to take advantage.

Also in that example. How often will that exact situation or even similar situation come up again? Probably once in every few 100 hands or less.

I understand the theory and understand how its supposed to work but just playing normally will be more profitable. Maybe at 1000nl where players can notice and adjust you can do this but wait until then.

Instead of this theory, i just iso the fish more and try to play as many pots with him as i can. Wait for good spots because they happen a lot. I dont like getting my money in bad when i could just wait and within 10 mins have a better spot where i know im good.

"I read this topic in a relatively advanced poker book and thought it was extremely interesting".

A very interesting concept, but as it is featured in a book that is for more advanced players, I doubt it would be of much use to me right now playing the micros.

BlueNowhere said:

Certinaly beneficial for higher players, especially for someone like Ivey as he knows how to exploit excellently but pointless for probably 100NL downwards.

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This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, but it's still one of my favorite excuses for most of my play.

I agree most players will not notice what you played, they may well be playing 10+ tables....if they do notice, you overplayed a small pair, no big deal-not like it was j7(seen it over and over)

What I notice and remember mostly is HOW MANY hands they play, more so than what exactly they had. If someone is playing half the hands, its time to adjust, try squeezes, etc. If they are calling 3x consistently, go to 5 or 6x.








please disregard above advice, I get killed in rings, stick to tournaments lol