Too much action...

Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Hello all. It's been a little while since I posted.

I play live alot, and just recently started playing micros again online. I have a question about my play.

I guess you could say I am a very aggressive player. I don't limp often, and I bet alot. I c-bet almost always.

I don't know why, but people just never believe me. I am trying to understand their mindset. I get called down so light, I just can't believe it sometimes. It's great when my hand holds up, but......

It seems that people become very annoyed by aggression, and they just get fed up. It seems that these people just want everyone to let them limp into every pot with J-4 and the like. It is like there is a little meter above everyones' head, and the more you raise, and put pressure on them, the meter fills up. Everyone on the table has meters (and it seems they all get full). I just play poker the only way I know how to, but people always wanna bust me it seems.

I only raise preflop with hands that have potential, and I know how to range opponents well. I am very aware of position, and exploit the benefits of it.

I don't talk trash at the table either. I never bitch about getting sucked out, or berate other players for their awful play. I just say "nice hand", or nothing at all. But that doesn't stop them from bitching when I river a 5 high flush to beat their kings.

I learned much of my strategy from here. But lately, I get so much action, I am encountering quite a bit of variance.

I will raise $20 at a $1/$2 and get 4 callers. I will hit the flop, and have people chasing to river with all sorts of crap. They will even say things like "I knew I would get you" when they suck out. Calling with bottom pair, and they say "I thought you were bluffing." when they suck out on the river with 2 pair. It is almost like they are a little embarrassed when they see what they were up against, and how bad their call really was.

Is it human nature to think everyone is bluffing? I never show my cards unless called.

I get so much action, I don't like it lately. Especially if I build up 2 or 3 buy-ins. Then it seems everyone is gunning for me.

I was just wondering are there some tricks to get a little more respect from my raises? Show a monster once in a while?

I bluff somewhat frequently (not very often, not a blaster by any means), and I would like it if people weren't so stubborn. Is there a way to manipulate my table image so my bets are respected more?

Do I want this type of attention at a table? Should I be glad to play with people like this?

Multiway pots are tough to play. People always trying to trap me (due to my aggression I am sure), outdraw me, bust me... Perhaps I just play amongst horrible players.... Who knows.

I like action, but I don't like playing 5-way pots with aces.

I just want to know if I am supposed to play this way always (aggressive, applying pressure when I think they are weak), or adjust due to dynamics...

I notice most of the other live players are much more passive than me. Online players too. That is how I know when someone is a good player - they raise and bet.

The rest of these fools raise a super thin range, and rarely show aggression unless they have a huge hand. They are easy to read. I do not want to be easy to read.

Like I said before, it seems like everyone thinks I am bluffing all the time. It is tough to play with so much action (sometimes, but I have done well lately in spite of this). It almost seems as if some people regard a raise as a challenge or something...

As I type this, it is starting to seem like a stupid thread. However, I have been thinking about it a bit lately, so I decided to ask for the advice from the fellow members of CC.

Thank you in advance.
 
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zEric7x

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I know when I played some micro stakes after a freeroll win my biggest mistake was calling to many raises with no particular plan in mind. I can see how other people could do that.
 
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These are the type of tables I thrive at, but that being said if I think I'm beat I can fold almost anything. If people are calling you down with bottom pair or draws, when the board gets scary check behind, you don't always have to go for max value, I don't know why, but so many people in live games love the idea of check raising the river. If your a cbet monkey Ill just raise your air with my air.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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These are the type of tables I thrive at, but that being said if I think I'm beat I can fold almost anything. If people are calling you down with bottom pair or draws, when the board gets scary check behind, you don't always have to go for max value, I don't know why, but so many people in live games love the idea of check raising the river. If your a cbet monkey Ill just raise your air with my air.

You are ions ahead of the average casino player.
Unfortunately, I must fold often. That was one of the toughest lessons in poker to grasp. Folding when you know you are beat. Those little alarm bells ringing, listen to them.
 
dgiharris

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...
I was just wondering are there some tricks to get a little more respect from my raises?.

One of the biggest leaks that thinking players have is trying to "create" a certain image. In fact, players make the mistake of thinking that certain images are more profitable than other images.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

The profit lies in recognizing your perceived image, that is--how others see you, and then ADJUSTING to that perceived image no matter what that image may be.

If you are perceived as a nit, then you should be raising and bluffing and stealing like a mad man.

if you are perceived as a LAG then you should be bullying on all boards that hit your perceived range and when you have a top value hand that they would never put you on you should be betting like crazy...

The question isn't "How do I get respect". That is the wrong question. The right question is, "How do I adjust to players that don't give me any respect."

that is a much better question to ask.

Human beings are funny creatures, they see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe facts be damned. So fine, if that is the case, how do we ADJUST AND EXPLOIT that???

that is the mindset you need to have

Good Luck
 
Aleksei

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You can't get people at 10NL and below to not call you down too wide, and frankly you shouldn't want to -- you print $$$ when they show bottom pair to your TPGK/TPMK, even if once in a blue moon they'll hit their miracle 2p.

If they're capable of folding, the way you keep a strong image is by winning the majority of hands you open-raise (with or without showdown), which preserves your momentum. When people are folding to your bets most of the time you can bluff a greater amount, but when they start looking you up tighten your opening range so that you'll flop a good hand you can barrel for value most of the time -- which increasingly means some hands you'd otherwise raise for value become folds or even limps (if the table's letting you limp). Basically you don't lose image strength when you fold a hand you limped, but you do when you fold hand you raised.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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One of the biggest leaks that thinking players have is trying to "create" a certain image. In fact, players make the mistake of thinking that certain images are more profitable than other images.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

The profit lies in recognizing your perceived image, that is--how others see you, and then ADJUSTING to that perceived image no matter what that image may be.

If you are perceived as a nit, then you should be raising and bluffing and stealing like a mad man.

if you are perceived as a LAG then you should be bullying on all boards that hit your perceived range and when you have a top value hand that they would never put you on you should be betting like crazy...

The question isn't "How do I get respect". That is the wrong question. The right question is, "How do I adjust to players that don't give me any respect."

that is a much better question to ask.

Human beings are funny creatures, they see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe facts be damned. So fine, if that is the case, how do we ADJUST AND EXPLOIT that???

that is the mindset you need to have

Good Luck

Very good. Thanks for the input.

Could you expand a bit on playing when people think you are laggy?

I would appreciate it.
 
Beanfacekilla

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You can't get people at 5NL and below to not call you down too wide, and frankly you shouldn't want to -- you print $$$ when they show bottom pair to your TPGK/TPMK, even if once in a blue moon they'll hit their miracle 2p.

If they're capable of folding, the way you keep a strong image is by winning the majority of hands you open-raise (with or without showdown), which preserves your momentum. When people are folding to your bets most of the time you can bluff a greater amount, but when they start looking you up tighten your opening range so that you'll flop a good hand you can barrel for value most of the time -- which increasingly means some hands you'd otherwise raise for value become folds or even limps (if the table's letting you limp). Basically you don't lose image strength when you fold a hand you limped, but you do when you fold hand you raised.

Thanks for that Aleksei.
 
LD1977

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This is going back to my fish schooling thread :D

I have found that trying to beat this with overpairs/TPTK hands is simply not working even though that seems to be a prevalent opinion for some reason.

The way to beat this is to include more speculative hands that play well in multiway pots. Meaning, 87s > AKo in multiway pots.

So widen up your range a bit, especially from late position. Play draws aggressively.
 
NvrBlufn

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Here is what always worked for me.

I would show up to my normal session playing 2-100 spread limit (its like 1-2) and sit down with 3-400. I would let the blinds go around the table for about 20 minutes playing SUPER tight-aggressive poker. Nothing early position but QQ+, nothing late position but 10s+

By the time people realized I was winning every pot that I entered they all pegged me as a rock and giving my raises tons of respect, winning me more pots. Now with the momentum from the first or second legitimate showdown win, I am able to open up my range and play my aggressive game (with more chips mind you than most if not for one or two players).

How long are your usual sessions? If you sit at a table do you stay there for an hour? 2 hours? 4+? The reason I ask is that the longer I sat, the more people started to go after me the way you've described. The opinions about me changed to "This is no rock. This is some LAG *%&* Kid who really thinks he can play!" At that point it is time to leave.

My usual session when I hit my stride was 75 minutes (I live less than 5 minutes from the casino) and in that 1hr 15m I averaged between $100-200 profit. I could tell it was time to go because I was getting called down lightly, chased after and bluffed at on the river. But those hero calls responsible for doubling my stack... mmmbaby!

Next question, are you usually playing at the same casino cardroom, same limits, and regularly encountering players who you can recognize and more importantly recognize YOU?

If the answer is yes maybe you should switch it up a bit. Drive around and look for opportunities to play against fresh opponents. It might be just the change you are looking for to reinvigorate your whole game. Meanwhile let those hams at the local casino forget your face and everything that they think they know about you. When you come back it will be a whole different beast they're up against.
 
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micro stacks you will always find people watching with mediocre hands, and not so many more that you walk the same path, I think u look better play as tight as possible at the beginning, and even more continuation bets with worse hands
 
duggs

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bet bigger for value.
 
dgiharris

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Very good. Thanks for the input.

Could you expand a bit on playing when people think you are laggy?

I would appreciate it.

If someone thinks you are Laggy then that means they are going to think you have a fairly wide range that centers around suited connectors.

So, this means that when you have a top ten hand like KQ and the board hits :kd4: :qs4: :7h4: you should just fast play because they aren't going to believe that you hit that because those cards are too good for a laggy player.

Basically, when you have a laggy image players think your range is weighted towards garbage. So, if you have a laggy image but have a strong value hand you will get paid. Similarly, you can run a lot of successful bluffs AGAINST THINKING PLAYERS when you know they have JJ+, AK and the board spits out garbage like 8 3 5 7 6. Having a laggy image means you have 2p or a straight here a lot of the time and thus you can fold out thinking players.

However, the problem with capitalizing on a laggy image is that you need to be very skilled in order to play as a lag or take advantage of a laggy image. You've got to target the right players and truth be told, majority of players at the lower stakes don't fold. This is why you will often read that TAG is the best way to beat lower stakes. And that is true for the most part...

anyways, not to write a book, hope this helps some.

In a nutshell, using your perceived image means just doing the opposite of the image. If you are seen as nitty then you should loosen up and bluff more since they will fold more to you. If you are seen as loose then tighten up and bet your value hands harder since villains will call you down lighter.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Here is what always worked for me.

I would show up to my normal session playing 2-100 spread limit (its like 1-2) and sit down with 3-400. I would let the blinds go around the table for about 20 minutes playing SUPER tight-aggressive poker. Nothing early position but QQ+, nothing late position but 10s+

By the time people realized I was winning every pot that I entered they all pegged me as a rock and giving my raises tons of respect, winning me more pots. Now with the momentum from the first or second legitimate showdown win, I am able to open up my range and play my aggressive game (with more chips mind you than most if not for one or two players).

How long are your usual sessions? If you sit at a table do you stay there for an hour? 2 hours? 4+? The reason I ask is that the longer I sat, the more people started to go after me the way you've described. The opinions about me changed to "This is no rock. This is some LAG *%&* Kid who really thinks he can play!" At that point it is time to leave.

My usual session when I hit my stride was 75 minutes (I live less than 5 minutes from the casino) and in that 1hr 15m I averaged between $100-200 profit. I could tell it was time to go because I was getting called down lightly, chased after and bluffed at on the river. But those hero calls responsible for doubling my stack... mmmbaby!

Next question, are you usually playing at the same casino cardroom, same limits, and regularly encountering players who you can recognize and more importantly recognize YOU?

If the answer is yes maybe you should switch it up a bit. Drive around and look for opportunities to play against fresh opponents. It might be just the change you are looking for to reinvigorate your whole game. Meanwhile let those hams at the local casino forget your face and everything that they think they know about you. When you come back it will be a whole different beast they're up against.

My usual sessions are 3+ hours. I will stay and continue to play as long as I am playing my A-game (and have an edge at current table).


And I do play at primarily 1 casino. A lot of the cats there know me, and I know many of them.

Like many online players keeps notes on opponents, I have notes in my mind about many of the guys/gals at the card room.

And finally, I guess really thinking about my image, my opponents would tell you different answers (depending on who you ask). Some of them would say I am a rock. Others would say I am a maniac. I play different depending on the table, my chip stack, and other dynamics.

I play a lot of suited connectors/ one gappers. I exploit position often. I mix things up. Sometimes I may raise UTG with 7-8s, and peel someone's cap. I guess you could say I am a lag - once I get into the groove and build up a stack.

I have thought about going to other card rooms. However, motor city is simply the best game in town. So many fish, so much money, 24-7 action. Also, I really like the dealers, some players, and the atmosphere. And I like knowing some of the peoples' patterns and styles when I sit down.

But in general, I suppose I can do what I do anywhere. I just like motor city.
 
Beanfacekilla

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If someone thinks you are Laggy then that means they are going to think you have a fairly wide range that centers around suited connectors.

So, this means that when you have a top ten hand like KQ and the board hits :kd4: :qs4: :7h4: you should just fast play because they aren't going to believe that you hit that because those cards are too good for a laggy player.

Basically, when you have a laggy image players think your range is weighted towards garbage. So, if you have a laggy image but have a strong value hand you will get paid. Similarly, you can run a lot of successful bluffs AGAINST THINKING PLAYERS when you know they have JJ+, AK and the board spits out garbage like 8 3 5 7 6. Having a laggy image means you have 2p or a straight here a lot of the time and thus you can fold out thinking players.

However, the problem with capitalizing on a laggy image is that you need to be very skilled in order to play as a lag or take advantage of a laggy image. You've got to target the right players and truth be told, majority of players at the lower stakes don't fold. This is why you will often read that TAG is the best way to beat lower stakes. And that is true for the most part...

anyways, not to write a book, hope this helps some.

In a nutshell, using your perceived image means just doing the opposite of the image. If you are seen as nitty then you should loosen up and bluff more since they will fold more to you. If you are seen as loose then tighten up and bet your value hands harder since villains will call you down lighter.

Thanks man. I really like what you have to say.

I guess I really am a lag most of the time. Once I build up a stack, I play suited connectors/one gappers, and sometimes just connectors in LP.

And I guess when I think about it, I pretty much already adjust to the table without thinking. It is easy to see you need to tighten up if you are getting called down with middle pairs and stuff.

I just ended a very profitable session about 12 hours ago. Many of the things we have talked about in this thread (and on CC in general) helped me to really extract value. Of course it is easy when you are patient, and keep hitting flops.

I have been making excellent reads and great lay downs lately. I have had such clarity in my thoughts, and ranging villains. I hope it continues.

Thanks again for all the input everyone.
 
Beanfacekilla

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This is going back to my fish schooling thread :D

I have found that trying to beat this with overpairs/TPTK hands is simply not working even though that seems to be a prevalent opinion for some reason.

The way to beat this is to include more speculative hands that play well in multiway pots. Meaning, 87s > AKo in multiway pots.

So widen up your range a bit, especially from late position. Play draws aggressively.


Thanks man. This is good advice.
 
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